Rifle/Shotgun/PCC from the shoulder

[Nghthwk1911]

OK,

In the last few weeks I have had a lot of shooters ask me about shooting a long gun from the anywhere other then the shoulder was DQ'able?

So I started looking, what I have found is that in 3GN rules it is a DQ per rule -

2 2. .8 8 Discharging or “Burning” the last round(s) to empty the chamber, unload a firearm or to load a different projectile is admissible, but it must be pointed and done so at a legal target or in a safe direction. Long guns must be fired from the shoulder while “burning” a round if done in a direction other than a legal target for intended firearm being handled. Competitors’ failing to keep long guns shouldered while “burning” any round(s) in a direction other than a legal target is considered a Negligent Discharge and will result in a match DQ. (Rule 2.2.3, 2.2.6

And while it says "Long guns must be fired from the shoulder while "BURNING" a round..." it never says anywhere else that during the COF you must have a long gun shouldered to shoot in the rules?

But in USPSA/IPSC it is not, and there are no specific rules on this subject, so as long as you don't toss one over the berm shooting like Jesse the Body Venture with your PCC 9mm at the local USPSA match no harm no DQ.

So the question I have is this, Should we have statement in the Rules (all thee sports) about this, should we make all long gun shots be from the shoulder? And I admit I was under the impression that it was a DQ today in all three sports for any shot fired from a long gun not shouldered, I appear to be wrong on this. I have checked with DNROI and IPSC Long Gun Rules head, and they have confirmed in these two rule sets it is not a DQ to fire from the "Hip" or not shouldered.

With PCC becoming a thing in USPSA I am thinking maybe we should have this be a rule.

[Southpaw]

With PCC becoming a thing in USPSA I am thinking maybe we should have this be a rule.

Why?

[Nghthwk1911]

Good question, I am thinking if we want to shoot carbine and not pistol, it should be shot like a carbine? I am not sure if there is a inherent saftey issue with shooting from the hip with a rifle at a match, but I am sure there are some that will.

[Southpaw]

As far as I know there's no rule against shooting a handgun from the hip at a USPSA match and that's no safer than shooting a rifle from the hip.

I don't plan to shoot a PCC from the hip, but can envision scenarios where due to stage design I might want to fire just a few shots with the carbine not perfectly shouldered and don't think that should be a DQable offense.

[thermobollocks]

You don't have to have a pistol raised to eye level. Why require the same of a rifle? The rules on NDs are still the same.

[Nghthwk1911]

All good points, and I am glad this is being presented, I agree with all points so far. So then I will come back to why is it a DQ in 3GN when burning a round? what makes that any less safe then just shooting at a target for score?

[Nik Habicht]

All good points, and I am glad this is being presented, I agree with all points so far. So then I will come back to why is it a DQ in 3GN when burning a round? what makes that any less safe then just shooting at a target for score?

Strictly a guess but the thinking might be that the shooter is done shooting at targets, and the loaded rifle he's holding is an obstacle toward whatever comes next -- like engaging handgun targets. So the rules writers might have been worried that a shooter who hurries the process of dumping the mag, burning the last round and then dumping the long gun might be more likely to send a round in the wrong direction, than a competitor engaging a target in an unorthodox manner.....

But again -- that's strictly a guess.....

[JAFO]

Maybe it's too hard to tell when they are burning a round and when they've had an AD?

[Sarge]

The new PCC rules they are working on say must be fired from shoulder. I contend on a table start with targets at 3-5 feet I could shoot them faster as soon as the guns off the table without shouldering

[Gary Stevens]

The new PCC rules they are working on say must be fired from shoulder. I contend on a table start with targets at 3-5 feet I could shoot them faster as soon as the guns off the table without shouldering

Remember Sarge when PCC goes on line all targets have to be 75 yards minimum:)

[Sarge]

The new PCC rules they are working on say must be fired from shoulder. I contend on a table start with targets at 3-5 feet I could shoot them faster as soon as the guns off the table without shouldering

Remember Sarge when PCC goes on line all targets have to be 75 yards minimum:)

Oh yeah, I forgot how all stages are going to favor longer tighter shots when it goes live!

[Nghthwk1911]

I heard 100yrd min, on 4 inch plates hiden by hard cover backed by No-Shoots.

[Nghthwk1911]

"Must have stock attached and must be fired from shoulder position. **Note: Sig Brace and any variant thereof is not allowed—must be attached to the carbine and fired from the shoulder**"

what happens when we don't? Procedural per shot fired?
Maybe there should be a rule tied to that, not a new rule, but that is the penalty?

[Southpaw]

"Must have stock attached and must be fired from shoulder position. **Note: Sig Brace and any variant thereof is not allowed—must be attached to the carbine and fired from the shoulder**"

what happens when we don't? Procedural per shot fired?

Maybe there should be a rule tied to that, not a new rule, but that is the penalty?

I asked that on the USPSA forum and didn't get a response. I hope they drop that rule entirely since I don't see a point to it.

[ziebart]

For 3GN there are a few people that feel "burning" the last round out of a shotgun is faster than putting the safety on when dumping it and transitioning to another firearm. Due to this there were a lot of people pushing the 10' ND rule.

[Gary Stevens]

"Must have stock attached and must be fired from shoulder position. **Note: Sig Brace and any variant thereof is not allowedmust be attached to the carbine and fired from the shoulder**"

what happens when we don't? Procedural per shot fired?

Maybe there should be a rule tied to that, not a new rule, but that is the penalty?

I would guess a piece of equipment that was illegal on its face would not get a start signal. Now as to the other question I don't have a clue. Edited April 2, 2016 by Gary Stevens

[Jadeslade]

I have asked this a few times of Charles Sole, Mike Sexton, and anybody really. No answer. Because is all I get. It is also a rule at Tarheel 3 Gun. I suspect there was an incident once and nobody wants to talk about it. I learned about it when I was doing my walkthrough at the Remington Versamax Shotgun Match in Atlanta last year and Mike was in my squad. I was looking at the last part of stage which had shots under a fence about mid-thigh high and said" 'I'll just shoot those Steve McQueen style, move and then finish'". I was told that was not allowed and because it's in the rules. Anybody who shoots shotgun enough and practices a lot has shot a shotgun upside down over their head or off their bicep (this in done in matches as well) and is aware of the dynamics. I personally do not have an objection to it and shot several targets with PCC not shouldered at 3GN Regional, because they were right in my face-kind of the way we shoot pistol targets under a table sometimes-just point and shoot. Not sure of the issues to cause a rule.

[Nghthwk1911]

I have asked this a few times of Charles Sole, Mike Sexton, and anybody really. No answer. Because is all I get. It is also a rule at Tarheel 3 Gun. I suspect there was an incident once and nobody wants to talk about it. I learned about it when I was doing my walkthrough at the Remington Versamax Shotgun Match in Atlanta last year and Mike was in my squad. I was looking at the last part of stage which had shots under a fence about mid-thigh high and said" 'I'll just shoot those Steve McQueen style, move and then finish'". I was told that was not allowed and because it's in the rules. Anybody who shoots shotgun enough and practices a lot has shot a shotgun upside down over their head or off their bicep (this in done in matches as well) and is aware of the dynamics. I personally do not have an objection to it and shot several targets with PCC not shouldered at 3GN Regional, because they were right in my face-kind of the way we shoot pistol targets under a table sometimes-just point and shoot. Not sure of the issues to cause a rule.

I am not sure how it can be a rule for a match that Charles Sole runs, as he is a 3GN MD (Or last I knew he was), and 3GN has no rules other then burning a round about long guns having to be shouldered at all. If it is in the 3Gun Nation rules it is not in any rule book I can find on-line. Maybe you should ask them to show you this in print at the next match and you can tell us on what page or napkin it is written on?

Edited April 2, 2016 by Nghthwk1911

[Chuck Anderson]

I don't see any correlation to the rule regarding burning round in 3 Gun sport and PCC at a USPSA match. The reason for burning rounds usually has to do with transitioning between firearms, i.e. grounding the rifle and going to shotgun, or swapping ammo types, i.e. loading a slug and burning the birdshot in the chamber. Neither of these have any reason to be encountered in PCC. As far as the reasons for the rules being there is people would burn that round in all sorts of scary directions. Often times too fast to really see whether it was in the bay or not. Not always, but I saw some really unsafe rounds being fired to clear that chamber. Since usually all the targets are engaged already if the shooter is running off somewhere there were several times that RO's would yell stop and think the shooter was DQ'd when a round all the sudden went off not pointed at a target. That rule was made to try and combat that. But again, I don't see where there would be a correlation between that and PCC.

[Craig N]

"Must have stock attached and must be fired from shoulder position. **Note: Sig Brace and any variant thereof is not allowed—must be attached to the carbine and fired from the shoulder**"

what happens when we don't? Procedural per shot fired?

Maybe there should be a rule tied to that, not a new rule, but that is the penalty?

I think that's just there to get around the "turns it in to a SBR if you shoulder a sig brace" deal. Since you have to be able to shoulder the rifle you can't use an illegal SBR in a match.

[2MoreChains]

I shot PCC at a local match this weekend. Had a stage where we had to engage a close target thru a port. Bottom of the port's sill was about 4' off the ground and the target was angled back 45 degrees and close enough that most shooters are not tall enough to shoot their PCC thru a 4' high port in a downward angle with it shouldered. I'm sure everyone has shot something similar and usually with a pistol we just point shoot since the target is so close.

I can only speculate why the draft rules were written to require that the PCC must be shouldered, but I think we're going to keep running into these situations where it's going to be difficult if not impossible to shoulder the PCC for certain shots.

Not saying this is a reason to do away with this grand social experiment, just something to consider and figure out how to deal with it.

[Southpaw]

"Must have stock attached and must be fired from shoulder position. **Note: Sig Brace and any variant thereof is not allowed—must be attached to the carbine and fired from the shoulder**"

what happens when we don't? Procedural per shot fired?

Maybe there should be a rule tied to that, not a new rule, but that is the penalty?

I think that's just there to get around the "turns it in to a SBR if you shoulder a sig brace" deal. Since you have to be able to shoulder the rifle you can't use an illegal SBR in a match.

That's what I thought at first too, but apparently that's not the case. Someone actually wants there to be a requirement that the PCC be fired from the shoulder. I still don't understand the logic behind it and hope that rule gets dropped. If y'all agree you should email your area director and let them know how you feel

[ac4wordplay]

"Must have stock attached and must be fired from shoulder position. **Note: Sig Brace and any variant thereof is not allowed—must be attached to the carbine and fired from the shoulder**"

what happens when we don't? Procedural per shot fired?

Maybe there should be a rule tied to that, not a new rule, but that is the penalty?

I think that's just there to get around the "turns it in to a SBR if you shoulder a sig brace" deal. Since you have to be able to shoulder the rifle you can't use an illegal SBR in a match.

That's what I thought at first too, but apparently that's not the case. Someone actually wants there to be a requirement that the PCC be fired from the shoulder. I still don't understand the logic behind it and hope that rule gets dropped. If y'all agree you should email your area director and let them know how you feel

You state: "That's what I thought at first too, but apparently that's not the case. Someone actually wants there to be a requirement that the PCC be fired from the shoulder."

How do you know this?

[Southpaw]

Has anyone ever said otherwise? I was a bit confused by the wording of that rule at first since it combines the ban on Sig braces with the shoulder requirement, but my understanding is that it's really two separate points. If that's not true and really all they're saying is no Sig braces then I'm cool with that, but there's much better ways to word it in that case.

Like I said I hope they drop the shoulder requirement entirely. 2MoreChains gave a good example of when we might want to fire without the PCC squarely in our shoulder. I hadn't even thought about that type of shot.

[ac4wordplay]

Has anyone ever said otherwise? I was a bit confused by the wording of that rule at first since it combines the ban on Sig braces with the shoulder requirement, but my understanding is that it's really two separate points. If that's not true and really all they're saying is no Sig braces then I'm cool with that, but there's much better ways to word it in that case.

Like I said I hope they drop the shoulder requirement entirely. 2MoreChains gave a good example of when we might want to fire without the PCC squarely in our shoulder. I hadn't even thought about that type of shot.

Maybe I misunderstood your post. Your statement of "Someone actually wants there to be a requirement that the PCC be fired from the shoulder" (rather than something like 'I think that someone actually wants...') suggested (at least in my mind) that you received information from a source that stated this (your comment) as fact.

I agree that there shouldn't be a requirement that the stock be shouldered. I also agree that if requiring the stock to be shouldered wasn't the intent, then the language used was poorly chosen and needs to be corrected. Poorly chosen language (coming from USPSA, and regarding rules for a division that isn't even provisional yet) wouldn't surprise me. Unfortunately, it also wouldn't surprise me if USPSA intended to require the PCC shouldered for all/any shots fired.

Respectfully,

ac

Edited April 5, 2016 by ac4wordplay