Seat/crimp frustration

[Miranda]

... you won't happen to have one around for an inveterate tinkerer to try?

we can talk price...

I was looking at it and thinking it looks like speed would be a problem.

but it also solves a few issues like looking for powder and the separation of seat and crimp.

:-D tuning springs is such a pain.

miranda

[BeerBaron]

I would happily give you one but if you're in the U.S. you're a long way from me. on the plus side I think they're only about $30-$40. My advice though is safe yourself the pain. The design is interesting but it's let down in the excecution...

Edited May 9, 2016 by BeerBaron

[Miranda]

Hi beerbaron,

I was tossing a flyer and did not expect you to sell yours.

Just wanted to see that look on your face.

I tend to keep such things and look for solutions after I give it a try.

I was and still am planning to get one. Your comment on it

was confirmation of what I assumed was true about the tinker factor.

miranda

[Miranda]

Hi Beerbaron

I had pretty much decided to get one of these lee bullet feeders

(I am considered by a few to be an inveterate tinker-er)

I have one... um... this...

I am going to need to see it in action,

'cause it sure don't look like it will be smooth.

it needs at least one more spring...

miranda

[BeerBaron]

One tip. Mine worked best (and I use the terms 'worked' and 'best' with artistic licence) with coated lead bullets that had a lube groove. That way if the bullet slipped at all in the plastic fingers in its journey from stack to case mouth it would be caught by the lube groove. Trying to get the plastic fingers to hold smooth sided fmj etc is tough.

[noylj]

>I just cannot get it to seat and taper crimp without occasionally buckling a case or two

God, I wish I could visit some folks and actually SEE what they are doing.

Now, MY taper crimp dies do NOT crush cases. They will turn the case mouth into the bullet and damage the bullet, but I have not crushed any cases. Roll crimping will crush a case.

Do either the Hornady or RCBS SAY they are taper crimp only? If so, CALL them and have them talk you through adjusting them or ask them to take the dies back and inspect them.

Just to be sure we are on the same page, here are my directions for use with all seat/crimp dies that I know of:

Turn seating stem all the way UP. Turn the die body lock ring all the way up. Place a sized and expanded/flared case in the shell plate. Raise the ram so the case goes in the die body all the way. With the ram up, screw the die body down until you just feel the crimp section contact the case mouth. Turn the die body up one or two turns so the crimp section is out of the way. Very lightly turn the die body lock ring down to just barely help hold the die body in place.

Lower the ram and place a bullet on the case. Raise the ram all the way up. Turn the seating stem down until it contacts the bullet. Lower the ram slightly and turn the seating stem down another one or two turns. Raise the ram. You have now seated the bullet. The COL is not correct, but the bullet is seated.

If you know the COL you want, adjust the seating stem until you get your target COL. If you don't know the COL you want, make up two inert dummy cases and adjust the COL until they can be hand cycled from the magazine to fully chambered.

With the COL set, turn the seating stem all the way UP.

Now, you are going to set the crimp. Check out the cartridge/case drawing in a manual and note the case mouth OD. You want the taper crimp to be somewhere between this dimension and 0.002" smaller. For 9x19, SAAMI shows a loaded cartridge with a case mouth diameter of 0.3800 +0.000/-0.007", so I target 0.378-0.380"for my crimp. All you really want is to remove the casemouqth flare and NOT to actually crimp the case into the bullet. You should be able to pull a seated and crimped bullet and NOT have a mark on the bullet from the case.

So, adjust the crimp to the target dimension or until the cartridge passes the plunk test. With the cartridge in the die, turn the die body lock ring down and tighten it. Your crimp is now set. Finally, turn the seating stem down until it just touches the bullet (be careful as you have enough leverage to actually seat the bullet deeper by hand, so only turn the seating stem until it just contacts the bullet). Turn the seating stem lock ring down tight.

Your die is now set to seat and crimp and there should be NO crushed cases (unless you try to use a .357 Mag case in a die adjusted for .38 Spl or some other gross mistake.

I LOVE the Lee bullet feeder. It is just what I need. I have a problem with very fine muscle control activities, such as placing a little .355" bullet on case straight. I can fiddle with it for minutes. I use the Lee seating dies (often with custom bullet seating plugs) and I hand cycle the bullet from the tube to just under the die.

The only problem I see with the Lee bullet feeder is if you use it in AUTO mode (disregarding the whole having to interrupt the loading process to load the bullet tubes), then, when there is no case to pick up the bullet, the bullet will drop to the floor when the next bullet pushes it out. There are fixes (see YouTube) and Lee should use them. However, for me, my manual use is more than adequate and there are no dropped bullets. I had to cut down the bullet feed tubes for my Dillon 1050s as there is no room for the long tubes, but I find that I can easily drop a bullet in the tube while I raise the tool head back up. If the fingers ever lose tension, you can place them in hot water and they'll reset.

Edited May 18, 2016 by noylj

[FightFireJay]

Well, you could buy a 650 or 1050 and GSI bullet feeder and have a bullet feeder and seat/crimp in two stations all while retaining a PC die...

Sooo, your solution is for him to spend between $1,060 and $2,450? Ballsy!

[noylj]

Accept the fact that "crushed" cases means the crimp is way excessive. Pictures would really help.

Remove the barrel and drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop round in barrel (or gage) and rotate it back-and-forth.

Remove and inspect the round:

1) scratches on bullet--COL is too long

2) scratches on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp

3) scratches just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case

4) scratches on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit

5) scratches on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.

Try this snd let us know what you find.

[GregJ]

Thanks for all the input and continued discussion.

I will try to address previous questions:

- The taper crimp dies I am using, are in fact taper crimp, they are not roll crimp.

- I have gone through setting up the Hornady taper crimp die with their support group. I was still buckling cases.

- My crimp is about .4705, which should not be too much. SAAMI Max for 45ACP is .4730. Using the formula here my goal crimp of .4705 should be ok.

- I am aware that if rounds are buckling they are being crimped too much during the seating/crimping process. I do use mixed headstamp, so there may very well be different lengths of brass. I have not measured them yet, but it only makes sense.

- As crimp would be too excessive for some, but not all brass, most likely the headstamps would have to be separated. Not sure I want to go this route again.

- I use the Shock Bottle 100 round cartridge gauge. I also have a Wilson gauge as a backup/double check. Since using the SB and seat and taper crimp separately, I have had no ammo related issues.

- No matter how I have adjusted the seat/crimp die, the rounds never plunk into the SB gauge as cleanly as when I seat and taper crimp separately.

- I shoot/reload approx 25K 45ACP a year, so I am not exactly new to this.

- Researching more, it seems seat and taper crimp separately is the preferred method for more accurate and better quality loads.

Even going Dillon is not the answer (from what I have read), as they do not sell a combined seat/taper crimp die, and to set a 1050 up like my LNL Ammo Plant (bullet and case feeder), I would be in the same boat of needing a station for the powder check die if seat and taper crimp separately.

I will try marking my loads as suggested and see what the results are.

Not my pic, but my buckled cases look like the one in the middle. Yes, too much crimp for some.

Edited June 27, 2016 by GregJ

[jmorris]

Sooo, your solution is for him to spend between $1,060 and $2,450? Ballsy!

You could have quoted the rest of my post that offered ways for the op to find the source of the problem.

Or you might run some more tests. Take some cases (say 50 or so from the same batch as the last one) and run them through the press with just the size/deprime die in station 1 and see how they fit in your gauges before powder, seat and crimp. That will give you a better control group and eliminate just jacked up brass from messing with your results.

Now, if they pass before and fail after you know you have a problem with the way you have the seat and crimp die adjusted.

Then again I suppose it takes less thought to just post a drive by unhelpful comment... On a thread that has been dormant for more than a month, no less. Edited June 27, 2016 by jmorris

[jmorris]

Not my pic, but my buckled cases look like the one in the middle. Yes, too much crimp for some.

If your cases look like the middle case that's too much for anyone intending to fire the ammunition they are loading.

Try setting the die down just enough to remove the bell so it fits into the case gauge and no further. Now adjust the seat portion for OAL. You can "press check" a few rounds to ensure they have proper neck tension and if they do, you will be good to go.

[GregJ]

If your cases look like the middle case that's too much for anyone intending to fire the ammunition they are loading.

Yeah, I know. I was adjusting the taper crimp to get to my goal of .4705 and clean plunks in/out of the SB gauge, and would wind up buckling some. I will try this again soon to see if I can get it adjusted so that they gauge cleanly.

Edited June 27, 2016 by GregJ

[jmorris]

Yeah, I know. I was adjusting the taper crimp to get to my goal of .4705 and clean plunks in/out of the SB gauge, and would wind up buckling some. I will try this again soon to see if I can get it adjusted so that they gauge cleanly.

I wouldn't worry about the actual crimp dimension to a half thousandth at this point. To have them function is much more important at this point. Once you have the dies setup so it will seat and crimp a round that will pass a case gauge/plunk test, at least you know you can make it work, after that you can chase numbers if you want to.

[noylj]

Why is your goal some number, and that number crushes the cases, and you don't see the problem?

SAAMI specifies loaded case mouth of 0.4730-0.4724, with 0.4730" being nominal. 0.4705" is far below SAAMI allowable.

So, where did you get this target crimp you seem so set on?

[GregJ]

Why is your goal some number, and that number crushes the cases, and you don't see the problem?

SAAMI specifies loaded case mouth of 0.4730-0.4724, with 0.4730" being nominal. 0.4705" is far below SAAMI allowable.

So, where did you get this target crimp you seem so set on?

A few reasons:

- Years ago, when I first started reloading 45ACP for my Kimber, this crimp resulted in no FTFeed issues, so I have kept using it in my later 1911 SS pistols.

- When I was working through the the feeding issues, I did use my barrel as a gauge. But it is a lot easier and consistent to use a cartridge gauge. It should be continually closer to SAAMI spec as it never gets shot, dirty, worn, etc, etc.

- My later comp 1911 SS pistols have match grade barrels, and are probably a little tighter specs.

- Anything more, even in the .4720 range, do not drop cleanly in and out of my Shock Bottle or Wilson gauges.

- Lastly, IIRC, I had found that to be a pretty consistent figure used by others at the time.

Last night I played around with my RCBS TC/Seat die, tried to make some dummy rounds that would pass the gauge test cleanly, and once again I put it up and went back to separate dies. Even with an OAL of about 1.25 and crimp of approx .4715 (IIRC), I still had a buckled case and the others did not drop in and out of the gauge cleanly. Crimp of .4720 and they would not drop cleanly in and out of the gauge.

If factory ammo plunks in and drops cleanly, so should mine. I will double check some of my factory ammo tonight to see what the crimp is.

I would really like to know how many USPSA SS shooters that reload their own ammo (presumably a lot over the course of a season), if they use a TC/Seat die do they check their ammo with a cartridge gauge. And if they do, what percentage actually pass? How many buckled cases do they have?

Edited June 28, 2016 by GregJ

[Miranda]

it will not make you feel better. I load mostly 9mm and only a little 45.

I've never buckled a case in the seating or crimping die.

I am still trying to figure out how you do it

I have crushed and shrimped cases with the sizing die...

:-D I got em with enthusiasm!

so far, all my ammo has chambered once I have the dies all set.

the only way one can buckle the case like the photo is to stop and hold the top of the case

while the bottom of the case gets pushed.

so if you have a Tough Bullet and the case wall gets tapered against the Tough Bullet,

the top of the case will stop.

the answer is raise the die...

which may cause other problems.

miranda

[GregJ]

I understand that people think the crimp is too much, because logically that is what should be causing the buckled cases. And technically it should be correct. However, given the data below, and the ability to NOT produce ammo that will consistently pass the cartridge gauge plunk test, makes me understand why reloaders in years past have asked for separate dies for seating and taper crimping.

More data:

- I checked several factory rounds of Remington UMC (just grabbed first box I could find), and the crimp was either .4685 or .4690

- My Sierra Edition V, shows a max of .473 There is no range or minimum specified, nor does any SAAMI diagram I have seen yet. They only show a max.

- Using this formula, which is easily found on the Intarwebs, my crimp should be .4670, so at .4705 it is a little fat.

bullet diameter + (2 x case wall thickness) - crimp amount = taper crimp

.451 + (2 x .0100) = .4710 - .004 = .4670

The amount of taper crimp (.004) was specified here, it's a good read.

Given the formula above, and my end TC of .4705, I am only putting a crimp amount of .0005

Edited June 28, 2016 by GregJ

[jmorris]

Years ago, when I first started reloading 45ACP for my Kimber, this crimp resulted in no FTFeed issues, so I have kept using it in my later 1911 SS pistols.

What have you changed that went from "good" results to the buckled cases your now making?

Have you tried the process I posted in #36?

Edited June 28, 2016 by jmorris

[GregJ]

Years ago, when I first started reloading 45ACP for my Kimber, this crimp resulted in no FTFeed issues, so I have kept using it in my later 1911 SS pistols.

What have you changed that went from "good" results to the buckled cases your now making?

Have you tried the process I posted in #36?

I went from separate seat and crimp to trying to recover a station by seat/crimp in same die. I've been doing it separately for several years with great results.

Yes. If I just barely remove the bell, they dont gauge correctly. If I keep increasing the crimp to get them to gauge, then I get a lot of buckled cases, and they still do not gauge as cleanly as separate seat and crimp.

[Miranda]

Hi GregJ,

I've tossd maself into this I may as well stick.

lets go about this a different way...

you set crimp at some reasonable figure

and you get buckling.

so you state your bullets are .451

you also state your case walls are .010

and you crimp to .4705

you drive the case wall into the bullet by about 5 tenths using the diameter dimension

lets ignore that nothing is perfectly one size (and believe me I'll get back here)

you state you are seating and crimping in one die and get buckling.

here we go.

at a guess, how far does a case have to be crushed to get buckling?

I am thinking about .010 or more and that you never feel it happen.

so for some cases and bullets everything is perfect.

the best way to think of this is that your bullet is sitting at the top of the die and the case wall is moving up.

In a perfect seat/crimp your case wall only digs into your bullet a very little.

here is a buckle... a perfect storm?

your case is a little longer than perfect.

your case wall is a little thicker than perfect.

and your bullet is a little bigger than perfect

so even if each one of those three only causes the case wall to dig into your bullet

just two thousands from the proper end point...

if you add all three you are looking at 6 thousands of buckle power.

based on your comments, I think I am being conservative.

The bullets I have purchased are pretty tight to a concentric but can be off by a

couple of tenths BUUUT are far more often off by a full thousand with an average

of .355 over ten to twenty.

I have seen many cases where at one place I get on the plus side on .010 and on the same case .012.

my measuring can be questioned. however I have seen the same from many cases.

so you simply can not count of the case wall being .010

and you can measure a dozen cases for length.

If you want a crimp that tight... you will need to separate seat and crimp

otherwise you have to let the crimp be loose enough for a long fat case to seat/crimp

on a fat bullet.

you can chamfer the inside of the casewall that should help...

but that does tend to defeat the reason I think you want that tight crimp.

luck.

miranda

edited out the extra line hiding after I signed.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Miranda

[GregJ]

If you want a crimp that tight... you will need to separate seat and crimp

otherwise you have to let the crimp be loose enough for a long fat case to seat/crimp

on a fat bullet.

I think you have hit the nail right here. Problem is, the resulting ammo is not what I consider "match" ammo. If I were loading up plinking or paper punching ammo, this might be acceptable.

[LLRukus]

On 3/12/2016 at 0:13 AM, MP40guy said:

Magpulled I have used 155 grain fp Barry's bullets, trying out rainier 165g fp. I get the bulge before I even crimp the bullet. The theory I have with the bulge busters is to me is your smearing that brass and at the same time thinning it out, so I'm trying to avoid having to use one. I have 180g lead bullets and really haven't had a issue other than they are smokey as hell at the indoor range I go to. Using only 5.4G of accurate #5 but it's the first time I have ever fired lead, haven't chronograph them yet. Every forum I've gone to can't really get idea of what else to do, so this is the first forum I have actually joined. I love reloading and I love my m&p 40 but lately due to bulging in the cases reloading 40cal hasn't been much fun mainly cause out of 50 bullets I'm pulling 10. Loading 9mm is a blast I just roll through those rounds and maybe 1 out of 200 I will have to pull. So I figure it was time to find out from the more experienced on here. Thanks Magpulled

I may be late to the game but this may be food for thought.  I started experiencing bulging issues when i went to jacketed bullets.  the bullets were not being seated straight every time causing a bulge to one side on some.  for some reason some of the brass was not being belled enough.  I made slight adjustment to the die which completely solved the issue.

[rustybayonet]

I have tried seat/crimp in my single stage day and gave up. Now I have a dillon and would never try to do it in one station.