Seat/crimp frustration

[GregJ]

Reloading on a Hornady LNL AP for 45ACP. This winter I got a Hornady bullet feeder and die, to complete my Ammo Plant. Got it all dialed in, except for the seat/crimp. Prior to the bullet feeder, I had been seating and crimping with separate dies (Hornady to seat and RCBS Taper Crimp to crimp), which had been working great for several years. In station 3 I have had the RCBS lockout die, which I really like and dont want to give up.

I have been trying to get the RCBS Seat/TC die to work (so I can keep the Lock Out die), but I just cannot get it to seat and taper crimp without occasionally buckling a case or two. I'm using 230gr Zero bullets and mixed headstamp, I normally seat to 1.240 and crimp to .4705. The rounds always drop nicely in and out of the cartridge gauge when seating and crimping separately.

I tried the newer Hornady seat/taper crimp die, but the crimp part of the die sticks on the case when lowering the round enough that I dont care to use it.

I have re-adjusted and re-adjusted and re-adjusted the RCBS die to the point of wanting to throw it out the window.

So I guess my options are to put up with lesser quality ammo and the occasional buckled round(s) so I can keep my Lock-Out die.

Or seat and crimp separately and set up a mirror or a small camera to try and keep an eye on the powder.

Or go back to hand feeding the bullets, keeping the lock out die and the seat and crimp dies separate.

I need a drink, and a 6th station on this thing.

Edited February 24, 2016 by GregJ

[GregJ]

Ran a little experiment.

Loaded 62 rounds with the RCBS seat/TC die in station 5:

1 - buckled

1 - showed slight crinkle, wouldn't pass Shockbottle gauge.

4 - no-go on the gauge

Several wouldn't drop from the gauge by themselves.

Loaded 46 rounds with the Hornady seat die in station 4 and the RCBS TC die in station 5:

1 - barely no-go on the gauge

All rest dropped in and out of the gauge by themselves.

I think I have my answer.

[peterthefish]

I've got the same dilemma, also using the LNL AP. It's really necessary to separate the T/C, and I much prefer to keep the lockout die.

I came to the same conclusion.

Edited February 23, 2016 by peterthefish

[jmorris]

Well, you could buy a 650 or 1050 and GSI bullet feeder and have a bullet feeder and seat/crimp in two stations all while retaining a PC die.

Or you might run some more tests. Take some cases (say 50 or so from the same batch as the last one) and run them through the press with just the size/deprime die in station 1 and see how they fit in your gauges before powder, seat and crimp. That will give you a better control group and eliminate just jacked up brass from messing with your results.

Now, if they pass before and fail after you know you have a problem with the way you have the seat and crimp die adjusted. likely, due to the results you have already had with the first test run.

Edited February 24, 2016 by jmorris

[Smeeg]

Consider this or making your own

http://www.ammovision.ca

[GregJ]

Put a fork in me, I am done.

I have come to the conclusion that I cannot make the same quality ammo using a seat/TC die as I can with separate dies. I readjusted it (for the umpteenth time) using a factory load as a sample, loaded up 100 rounds, and still had 1 buckled case and 9 that wouldnt gage cleanly. I called RCBS and went through the setup with them. Afterwards they assured me that it was set up correctly, and that I could make the same quality ammo as separate dies. I loaded up 100 rounds and still had 10 that wouldnt gage cleanly. I went back to the separate dies, ran another 100 through, and they ALL gaged as they should.

The setup for the foreseeable future:

#1 - Hornady deprime/size

#2 - Hornady powder drop with PTX (Mr Bullet Feeder)

#3 - Hornady Bullet Feeder die

#4 - Hornady crimp/seat die adjusted to only seat (1.240")

#5 - Redding taper crimp (.4705")

Now to work on a mirror/camera setup. Maybe I can talk Mrs. Claus into a 1050 next Christmas.

Edited February 26, 2016 by GregJ

[Smeeg]

http://www.uniquetek.com/site/696296/product/T1572-1

[CZinZA]

Buckled cases happen when the crimp die is adjusted too far down relative to the final seating depth. The crimp locks the bullet in place before the seating stem has finished pushing down - so the force buckles the case.

Back off about a quarter turn on the crimp die, but screw the seating stem in a touch to compensate, and the problem should go away.

Sent by Jedi mind control

[GregJ]

Tried that. But that changes the amount of crimp and how well the rounds gage.

For now, I will be using a re-purposed webcam and an old netbook. Tried the mirror, too hard to see the case.

Edited February 27, 2016 by GregJ

[firewood]

Hi Greg

I'm curious, assuming that the reason for using the bullet feeder is to increase the number of rounds per hour output, about how much do you expect a properly working the bullet feeder and seating/crimp dies to change things?

[GregJ]

Hi Greg

I'm curious, assuming that the reason for using the bullet feeder is to increase the number of rounds per hour output, about how much do you expect a properly working the bullet feeder and seating/crimp dies to change things?

It changes a lot. I can now losd 100 rnds in about 5-6 min. Now I just have to crank the handle and keep an eye on things. Whereas before I had to get a handful of bullets and pause to place the bullet. Plus my right arm and elbow was taking all the stress. Now I can hold onto the press with my left hand which relieves some of the stress and pressure ftom my right arm/elbow.

[MP40guy]

Maybe you guys can help me I'm new to the site and didn't want to start a new thread. I'm currently reloading 40cal on a lee turret press, I'm using lee 4 die carbide dies. When I seat the bullet I get a bulge at the case mouth down to where the bullet stops, some pass the plunk and case gauge test and many dont. I don't shoot a glock, I have adjusted my dies many times with no results. I put them through the fcd and they are still bulged, some say it can fix the issue, but usually not much of a change. It's frustrating cause loading 9mm I have no issues

[magpulled]

Mp40guy, lee sales a bulge buster die and it might help you. What projectiles are you loading. I load coated 180s and sometimes have this issue maybe 10 out of 1000 rds. When I load jacketed bullets almost always they all case gage. Cast lead bullets are sized different from jacketed bullets. My rounds usually have a little hump where the bullet is seated but it never really affects if mine pass the gage. If your crimp is off it could play a role as well.

[MP40guy]

Magpulled I have used 155 grain fp Barry's bullets, trying out rainier 165g fp. I get the bulge before I even crimp the bullet. The theory I have with the bulge busters is to me is your smearing that brass and at the same time thinning it out, so I'm trying to avoid having to use one. I have 180g lead bullets and really haven't had a issue other than they are smokey as hell at the indoor range I go to. Using only 5.4G of accurate #5 but it's the first time I have ever fired lead, haven't chronograph them yet. Every forum I've gone to can't really get idea of what else to do, so this is the first forum I have actually joined. I love reloading and I love my m&p 40 but lately due to bulging in the cases reloading 40cal hasn't been much fun mainly cause out of 50 bullets I'm pulling 10. Loading 9mm is a blast I just roll through those rounds and maybe 1 out of 200 I will have to pull. So I figure it was time to find out from the more experienced on here. Thanks Magpulled

[techj]

I have the LNL AP & bullet feeder that I use for 9 & 45 - use seperate seating & crimp and gave up on the powder check die.

For 9's I use a powder that fills more than 1/2 of the case and for both I just inspect each case before the bullet is placed - LED lght strip at station #3 allows me to easily look into the case and catch no charge & double charges.

I also use powders (Power Pistol, Bullseye) that meter very consistently which reduces the chances of a bad powder drop.

I use the bullet feeder as it helps speed but more importantly - retired so time is not the issue - easier on my hands not having to individually place the bullets...especially if I'm loading a thousand or more at a time.

Edited March 12, 2016 by techj

[OldBay]

Lee factory crimp die. /thread

[CZinZA]

MP40guy - could you possibly post a picture. It may help....

Sent by Jedi mind control

[Kaldor]

Lee factory crimp die. /thread

I use the FCD for 9mm and 45. Works excellent for 9mm, Im not too sure about 45. I barely have any belling on my cases, just enough to get the bullet in without shaving. I can feel it catching on the bell really bad as I come to station 5, which tells me that the FCD is catching the belling. It also has a slight hourglass appearance post crimp. I have the crimp turned out all the way, effectively crimping the ammo with nothing but the carbide ring. The ammo has no issues passing plunk and shoots good, but it just doesnt seem right. I think its possible I have gotten a really tight FCD. I plan on calling Lee to see what they say Friday morning. Otherwise Ill be trying my Hornady seater/taper crimp die in place of it.

[threeoaks]

Get rid of the Hornady and get a real press Dillon

[mikeyjones]

Get rid of the Hornady and get a real press Dillon

That doesn't change the issues w/ the dies...

I went through the same thing on both the Hornady press and Dillon 650. It took me FOREVER to find a happy medium that wouldn't shave brass and/or the bullet when seating 45s.

You should also play with the amount of bell you put on your cases.

[bwikel]

GregJ have you tested using brass all the same length? I know you don't want an extra step to trim all your brass but that could be the answer you are looking for to effectively use a combo seat/crimp die. Brass longer than your crimp set point would crimp sooner and bulge as it tries to finish seating the bullet.

[RickT]

I went through the same issues, but finally mastered the setup of the Hornady combo die - everything guages and everything fits in our 9mm 1911s and 9mm P2000, not so much in our one 9mm BarSto barrel, but that's another story. I've recently gone back to separate seat and crimp having decided that I can see the powder level adequately with the BF in station 3.

The MrBF PTX does make a difference IMO in the quality of the finished round and the press throughput. The bell it puts on is near-perfect and just enough to grab the bottom of the bullet and allow the operator to crank on the press with only the occasional tipped bullet. I tried going back to the Hornady PTX when I was trying to gain clearance between my powder measure and bullet feeder, but simply didn't get the same result on the case mouth.

[rowdyb]

it has also been my experience that a combination die for seat/crimp will never work as well as having them separate. And a Dillon 1050 doesn't solve this problem either, I run a 1050. Even on the 1050 if you want to keep your powder check you're doubling up on the seat and crimp. Which is far from ideal.

Station 0, case feed into shell plate

Station 1, size and deprime.

Station 2, swage

Station 3, prime

Station 4, bell and powder drop

Station 5, bullet feed, where my powder check used to be

Station 6, seating

Station 7, crimping, eject to box

[Miranda]

the lee bullet feeder does not replace a die.

you have to use the Lee seating die for the bullet feeder.

so in theory you can keep seating and crimping.

use your bullet feeder to feed the Lee feeder/seating die.

It looks like so many Lee things, it looks promising.

for 32 bucks and shipping...

[BeerBaron]

The lee bf is not one of the good but cheap lee products. I'm a big lee fan. Love the lee dies. Love the lee auto disk but the lee bf is sub optimal at best.

It relies on 2 plastic 'fingers' to grip either side of the bullet, pull it from the stack then hold it over the up coming case. Like many lee products its a very clever idea but let down by materials and tolerances in parts (ie built to a price).

I wouldn't reccomend it even to the keenest tinkerer.