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Changes needed to accommodate PCC in USPSA matches


MilkMyDuds

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I kept seeing comments about 0 changes needed for PCC to play in USPSA matches. I don't think so. Maybe we should compile a list of potential impacts. I am all for PCC as long as it does not cannibalize existing divisions nor changes how pistol stages are designed today.

1. Longer average distance to targets? Would the rifle crowd be fine with some of the hosing stages?

2. No facing up-range start? So long - El Pres?

3. No pick up form a box and load? I suppose it's doable but I am not sure

Any more?

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Changes PCC shooters will have to make to adapt to rules:

-Up range starts

-Pick up from box = Use bigger box for PCC , easily fixable

Changes pistol shooters will have to make to accommodate PCC:

-none

Alot of "all or nothing" thinking going on with this debate. PCC not being able to do classic uprange starts does not equal "oh shit I guess we have to completely abandon this." El Pres is a good example. PCC cannot do it the way pistol can. Logically, the simple fix is to have PCC have a different start. Pistol can still shoot it the normal way. Shooters are only scored in their own division so arguments about interdivisional fairness or whatever are moot.

Longer distance targets: most of my clubs' bays are not deep enough for this to be an issue. Carbine crowd would be completely ok with hosing stages because it is the same crowd as the pistol crowd. The desire is to shoot PCC in a USPSA match, not change matches.

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Changes PCC shooters will have to make to adapt to rules:

-Up range starts

-Pick up from box = Use bigger box for PCC , easily fixable

Changes pistol shooters will have to make to accommodate PCC:

-none

Alot of "all or nothing" thinking going on with this debate. PCC not being able to do classic uprange starts does not equal "oh shit I guess we have to completely abandon this." El Pres is a good example. PCC cannot do it the way pistol can. Logically, the simple fix is to have PCC have a different start. Pistol can still shoot it the normal way. Shooters are only scored in their own division so arguments about interdivisional fairness or whatever are moot.

Longer distance targets: most of my clubs' bays are not deep enough for this to be an issue. Carbine crowd would be completely ok with hosing stages because it is the same crowd as the pistol crowd. The desire is to shoot PCC in a USPSA match, not change matches.

^^^Nailed it

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Some of arguments against PCC fall under the either-or aka false dilemma fallacy and can be disregarded as such. The uprange start problem is a great example...

-PCC can't do uprange starts, therefore no uprange starts at all. This is then presented as "you can have PCC but we have to ditch all things with uprange starts completely or we can forbid PCC (re OP second question "2. No facing up-range start? So long - El Pres?"). In reality there are numerous other options, of which I advocate simply altering the carbine shooters' (note that I didn't not say all shooters) start position in these scenarios.

Same goes for box starts, surrender positions, and basically any "starting position" issue which probably make up the vast majority of potential problems.

Perhaps the strongest argument against PCC is the "rifles at a pistol match" one which is more ideological than anything. I get that some people will be all grumpy because there is a guy with a carbine and not a pistol and omg it is a pistol match dammit but that carbine shooter is going to shoot the same course, the pistol shooter will be able to shoot that course unaffected just as if PCC never existed ever (except for their mood potentially), and everyone can be scored against people in their own divisions just like always. Furthermore, the PCC shooters want to shoot these same USPSA courses. That is where all the interest is coming from -- shooters saying "damn dog, this match is wicked fun, I'd like to try this with a carbine sometime" as opposed to "I have a carbine, I desire to have USPSA change matches to make them PCC-centric."

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If I understand this right, a large percentage (70% or more) of stages will have different start positions for PCC? Why is PCC so unique to justify this extra overhead? To me it seems logical to have its own stages or even matches.

What about avg target distance? No one has said anything about this, probably because no one has shot PCC seriously on a typical USPSA stage. It's not unlikely people will start complaining about the targets being too close for rifles once the first wave of PCC gamers find themselves beaten by open or carry optic guys.

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What is the procedure for moving your PCC from stage to stage? Cased? On a cart?

Who is responsible for bringing the shooter their cart or case at the end of their run?

Not a huge deal, but a little bit of a logistical problem on a large field course when you start over here and end up all the way over there.

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If I understand this right, a large percentage (70% or more) of stages will have different start positions for PCC? Why is PCC so unique to justify this extra overhead? To me it seems logical to have its own stages or even matches.

What about avg target distance? No one has said anything about this, probably because no one has shot PCC seriously on a typical USPSA stage. It's not unlikely people will start complaining about the targets being too close for rifles once the first wave of PCC gamers find themselves beaten by open or carry optic guys.

I have no idea where you are getting the 70% number but it could be 100% and it wouldn't matter one bit because, as has been stated, pistol shooter positions will be completely unchanged. There isn't any overhead. Like zilch. It would be the same scoring mechanism, same stages, hell even the same group of shooters. That's why PCC fits so well with USPSA. It is unique because, uh hello, it is a carbine and not a pistol which really would make it the most unique division. If there is some spin-off carbine matches that wanna push distance out then that's cool, but adding PCC to USPSA is not detrimental to the sport. If I can shoot a carbine on the same stages, activate everything with the same ammunition, and not cause major stage design changes (which I believe is an unfounded fear) then what is the big deal other than ideology? There isn't one.

As for avg target distance, and stage design in general: there is no reason to think that it would change. MDs are going to want to keep everyone happy and the great majority are going to be pistol shooters. As I said before, I, a current USPSA shooter, want to shoot PCC on USPSA stages not make USPSA stages that favor carbine. You think I or most of the PCC people want a bunch of distance targets? No way, I want the mix of stages I currently get. Also people have been shooting carbines at club ranges on USPSA stages for like a long time across the country. This isn't a new fangled thing. It has been done and it ain't a big deal. And no carbine shooter is going to complain about a bunch of close targets any more than Open guys with their easier to acquire dots are going to. Everyone wants to burn a stage down.

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What is the procedure for moving your PCC from stage to stage? Cased? On a cart?

Who is responsible for bringing the shooter their cart or case at the end of their run?

Not a huge deal, but a little bit of a logistical problem on a large field course when you start over here and end up all the way over there.

I don't know. Prolly just bag it. Leave the bag near the start or end position. Having to walk back and forth to the bag after a long stage would be lame, but a buddy could bring it up.

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What is the procedure for moving your PCC from stage to stage? Cased? On a cart?

Who is responsible for bringing the shooter their cart or case at the end of their run?

Not a huge deal, but a little bit of a logistical problem on a large field course when you start over here and end up all the way over there.

IPSC addressed that ages ago... in their IPSC Rifle rule book.

PS: up range start is fine with rifle too: "Start facing up range, carbine/rifle in strong/weak hand pointing down range". But that, of course, a different stage from a handgun, so I'm still puzzled how that can be part of the same match

PSS: also when running 12..16" barrels on PCC, it may kick velocity up quite a bit (and as a result - energy of the bullet impact), so shooting steel (especially 7y steel) may not be safe anymore not only to the shooter, but to the steel too. This is easy to address in a separate match, but will require to design stages accordingly when PCC is mixed with handguns in the same match.

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What is the procedure for moving your PCC from stage to stage? Cased? On a cart?

Who is responsible for bringing the shooter their cart or case at the end of their run?

Not a huge deal, but a little bit of a logistical problem on a large field course when you start over here and end up all the way over there.

IPSC addressed that ages ago... in their IPSC Rifle rule book.

PS: up range start is fine with rifle too: "Start facing up range, carbine/rifle in strong/weak hand pointing down range". But that, of course, a different stage from a handgun, so I'm still puzzled how that can be part of the same match

PSS: also when running 12..16" barrels on PCC, it may kick velocity up quite a bit (and as a result - energy of the bullet impact), so shooting steel (especially 7y steel) may not be safe anymore not only to the shooter, but to the steel too. This is easy to address in a separate match, but will require to design stages accordingly when PCC is mixed with handguns in the same match.

You pick up ~200fps in the carbine with 115gr over a handgun (~1300-1400fps), which is below most open loads (1500s for 115)

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If the current avg target distance has been designed to measure points/second for handguns, I don't see how the same avg target distance will also be good to measure points/second for rifles.

I am sure no one will complain at the beginning, but very soon rifle shooters will get bored with the close distance because the skill spread is too small once people master the basic gun handling part. To truly reflect the skill spread of PCC shooters, the avg target distance has to go up. I truly don't see another way around this.

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If the current avg target distance has been designed to measure points/second for handguns, I don't see how the same avg target distance will also be good to measure points/second for rifles.

I am sure no one will complain at the beginning, but very soon rifle shooters will get bored with the close distance because the skill spread is too small once people master the basic gun handling part. To truly reflect the skill spread of PCC shooters, the avg target distance has to go up. I truly don't see another way around this.

They ain't gonna get bored just like how every other shooter doesn't get bored with closer target. I don't see how using the current avg handgun distance as the measure for carbines matters one bit. Again, don't wanna change the game, just wanna shoot carbine in it.

I get what you are saying about the skill spread. Its not that there are ways around it as much as it is you improperly applying a small part of a match (avg distance) as the whole deal (match quality/boredom). Avg target distance is just one factor that makes up a fun stage or match -- distance to travel, transition difficulty, array orientation, etc. all contribute and thus avg target distance is not a good measure for fun or boredom-potential. That will always be measured by the holistic feeling of the stage or match and we will figure this out when people start shooting PCC (which is the only real way to figure that out). Immediately coming to mind to counterbalance the avg distance complaint is the decreased mobility of carbines compared to pistols which will spread people more than any realistic distance changes.

If PCC people get bored they will switch back to handgun. Most likely people will do what I'm planning on doing: shooting PCC like 1/3 or 1/4 matches depending on how much time I have to reload. In any case the pistol shooter will be an unaffected witness to the whole process. I admit if boredom sets in -- which I really dont see happening, carbine has been around at locals for awhile and only got more popular due to the fun factor -- you could worry about MDs making courses tougher for PCC by increasing the distance. As stated before I don't MDs will do this because everyone will bitch about it immediately (after PCC any target beyond 10yrds is going to be viewed as PCC's fault). MDs will want to satisfy everyone. Also, most clubs are pretty limited on bay depth so targets can only be so far away anyway. Bigger matches have more distance targets, but always have (i.e. Florida Open, at least a couple years ago when I shot it).

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Hmm, we have a local USPSA match at the CMP where they started having stages with 35-45 yard shots. It was an amazing experience for me. I've never before seen whole squads of shooters ashen faced as they came up to the line. Some shooters froze up and emptied entire magazines hoping for hits on brown to avoid penalties. Others threw an 'engagement' round in the general direction of the targets and just moved on eating the miss penalties. A couple of bullseye shooters stood in profile and carefully engaged strong hand only, knocking out upper alphas. Afterwards, most shooters were sobbing on each others shoulders and swearing never to return.

Fiction? Only the part about shooter behavior. What I saw is that they shot the stage like any other. A few people bitched, a few enjoyed it and the next month we saw a number of long shots all over again, including 35 yard poppers and no-shoots between open targets. I rather enjoy having a number of long/difficult shots in a match, as part of the total experience.

Hell, if the MD wants to put 3 Texas Stars on a stage (fact, not faction), well, I'll happily shoot that challenge too.

Nothing prevents MD's from putting in long/hard shots now except for their own discretion and feedback from the shooters. And that is the way it should be. The whole handguns vs PCC/rifles argument is moot because handguns don't compete in the PCC division.

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I don't want to see the stages designed any differently to accommodate PCC. I want to shoot the exact stages we shoot now but with my PCC versus my pistol. As far as velocity differences my Chrono testing shows about 200 FPS increase. I tested everything from 95 grain to 147 grain bullets.

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They say the desire of having universal background checks is to stop the private sales loophole, should have no impact on existing gun owners nor infringe on 2A.

In reality, "innocent" desires often lead to "unexpected" consequences.

Edited by MilkMyDuds
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Milk,

While MD and course designers may decide to change the stages, those are not "needed". Your title asked what is needed for PCC to play. Then the post asked what are the potential impacts. IMHO they are two different things. What are the impacts to stage design if a revolver shooter becomes MD? Do you think they will design stages differently than an open shooter?

I think you likely brought up all the things that need to be addressed, minus PCC transport. The one thing that may need to be looked at is stages that require one handed shooting. Easy enough to require left shoulder or right shoulder if it is a classifier type deal. Harder if it is due to stage design. Most PCCs are light and can be maneuvered one handed though so it should not be an issue. If the shooter has a problem with it then tough cookies.

Edited by ziebart
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They say the desire of having universal background checks is to stop the private sales loophole, should have no impact on existing gun owners nor infringe on 2A.

In reality, "innocent" desires often lead to "unexpected" consequences.

Analogy does not apply. Half of this whole discussion and thread are about these possible consequences and, notably unlike the univesal background check parallel, are without base. Edited by FearsomeCritter
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If the current avg target distance has been designed to measure points/second for handguns, I don't see how the same avg target distance will also be good to measure points/second for rifles.

I am sure no one will complain at the beginning, but very soon rifle shooters will get bored with the close distance because the skill spread is too small once people master the basic gun handling part. To truly reflect the skill spread of PCC shooters, the avg target distance has to go up. I truly don't see another way around this.

The average shot in a given match is 5-10 yards, with occasional 15-25yrd. There is little skill in these 5-10 yard pistol shots. A dynamic 25 yard shot is not any easier with a carbine(Trust me a moving 25m shot with an MP5 is not a high percentage)

Honestly the thing that most people forget is the issue of mobility. The PCC shooter will handicapped by the ports and barriers. Moving a 16in carbine around barrier will require more time in and out of position. Not to mention those positions we are forced to contort in are hard enough with a 5in pistol, with a PCC it will be a whole new challenge. Also mentioned before the art of shooting a carbine with weak hand in a stationary environment is humbling enough, add a timed event will be entertaining.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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If approved, I have no intention of changing the way I design stages anymore than I don't design stages to challenge the Open guys at the expense of the iron sight guys. Nor do I see dumbing down stages. Tight quarters, hard leans, SHO/WHO... It's all part of the fun IMO. There has been some chatter about this at my club. There's been interest, but also a lot of questions. Most of the concerns are along the lines of "how are PCCs going to ____?" But those we'll have to wait to see what DNROI/BoD comes up with.

But to the OP's original question:

-Rules like 8.2.3 will need some sort of provision for PCC to be able to start in hand (low-ready or port-arms).

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If the current avg target distance has been designed to measure points/second for handguns, I don't see how the same avg target distance will also be good to measure points/second for rifles.

I am sure no one will complain at the beginning, but very soon rifle shooters will get bored with the close distance because the skill spread is too small once people master the basic gun handling part. To truly reflect the skill spread of PCC shooters, the avg target distance has to go up. I truly don't see another way around this.

We started a carbine match on USPSA pistol stages last year, and this is exactly what happened. Very little separation between shooters. We realized that and started pushing the targets back and making it harder.

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If the current avg target distance has been designed to measure points/second for handguns, I don't see how the same avg target distance will also be good to measure points/second for rifles.

I am sure no one will complain at the beginning, but very soon rifle shooters will get bored with the close distance because the skill spread is too small once people master the basic gun handling part. To truly reflect the skill spread of PCC shooters, the avg target distance has to go up. I truly don't see another way around this.

We started a carbine match on USPSA pistol stages last year, and this is exactly what happened. Very little separation between shooters. We realized that and started pushing the targets back and making it harder.

But this isn't supposed to happen in handgun matches, where the promise is to leave the stage design and performance challenges alone and simple "add" the rifles (who are happy to be there because they don't have any place else to go).

Or is it possible that stage challenges will be changed to make the rifle shooters even happier (and make the pistol shooters feel betrayed)? I sincerely hope not.

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Hmm, we have a local USPSA match at the CMP where they started having stages with 35-45 yard shots. It was an amazing experience for me. I've never before seen whole squads of shooters ashen faced as they came up to the line. Some shooters froze up and emptied entire magazines hoping for hits on brown to avoid penalties. Others threw an 'engagement' round in the general direction of the targets and just moved on eating the miss penalties. A couple of bullseye shooters stood in profile and carefully engaged strong hand only, knocking out upper alphas. Afterwards, most shooters were sobbing on each others shoulders and swearing never to return.

I actually believe that 35-45 yard shots should be more common at club matches if they have the facilities. They aren't unusual at major matches at least in my area so I think it would be good to have them at club matches too.

In fact last year I shot a major match where we had a stage where a good 20% of the points were at 40 yards. I watched shooters go up and literally dump magazines trying to hit those poppers.

And lets not even talk about the 2015 Open/L10 Nationals...

Edited by PPGMD
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