Mags must start on table. Can't use Mag Pouches

[d_striker]

All mags start on table. Is it legal to specify that a shooter cannot use their mag pouches after the beep in a COF?

[NickBlasta]

Yes. 5.2.4.

[ChuckS]

The rule book is your friend:

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

[BARRYJ]

Don't see why not. And I hope this doesn't go 6 pages.

[d_striker]

Nick-you were right.

Edit-I'm going with Gary on this.

Edited February 9, 2016 by d_striker

[d_striker]

The rule book is your friend:

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

Yeah Chuck. Nick and I were discussing that in another thread.

I always thought that language existed purely to specify that mags had to come from the belt "unless stipulated otherwise."

I didn't think it existed to allow a WSB to state you couldn't use pouches after the beep.

[Garmil]

I would have to see the wsb again. I didn't at this match but I watched multiple people put mags on their belt during the cof.

[Gary Stevens]

After the start signal you can put tour mags back in their pouches. Mags only have to start on the table.

[bikerburgess]

The WSB can state and mandate almost anything, there are very few limitations on it in the rules, even fewer at a level one match (not that, that would come into effect in this case) it can be used to make interesting stage procedures or horrible stages, it all comes down to how it is written.

In this case it says I can't use my mag pouches so I can't use them, unfortunately for the stage designers intent(I hate that word) it did not say anything about pockets or magnets or stuffing them in your belt so all those would be fine just not the pouches.

Edited February 9, 2016 by bikerburgess

[d_striker]

The WSB can state and mandate almost anything, there are very few limitations on it in the rules, even fewer at a level one match (not that, that would come into effect in this case) it can be used to make interesting stage procedures or horrible stages, it all comes down to how it is written.

In this case it says I can't use my mag pouches so I can't use them, unfortunately for the stage designers intent(I hate that word) it did not say anything about pockets or magnets or stuffing them in your belt so all those would be fine just not the pouches.

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The "it's just a level 1 match" expression that always get's thrown around doesn't exist in the rules. Part of the benefit/responsibility of being affiliated with USPSA is that a member can go to any match in the country and expect that the match follows the rules. Regardless of what level match it is.

The only L1 exemption in the rulebook that I can think of pertains to painting steel after every shooter and mandating that targets must be activated before shooting them.

Edited February 9, 2016 by d_striker

[ChuckS]

The WSB can state and mandate almost anything, there are very few limitations on it in the rules, even fewer at a level one match (not that, that would come into effect in this case) it can be used to make interesting stage procedures or horrible stages, it all comes down to how it is written.

In this case it says I can't use my mag pouches so I can't use them, unfortunately for the stage designers intent(I hate that word) it did not say anything about pockets or magnets or stuffing them in your belt so all those would be fine just not the pouches.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The "it's just a level 1 match" expression that always get's thrown around doesn't exist in the rules. Part of the benefit/responsibility of being affiliated with USPSA is that a member can go to any match in the country and expect that the match follows the rules. Regardless of what level match it is.

The only L1 exemption in the rulebook that I can think of pertains to painting steel after every shooter and mandating that targets must be activated before shooting them.

I put this list together from the current rule book. I think I have all the level 1 exemptions. If not, please advise:

Level_1_exemptions_rev_B.pdf

ETA: sorry, old version of the exemptions....

Edited February 9, 2016 by ChuckS

[mrpredictable]

The WSB can state and mandate almost anything, there are very few limitations on it in the rules, even fewer at a level one match (not that, that would come into effect in this case) it can be used to make interesting stage procedures or horrible stages, it all comes down to how it is written.

In this case it says I can't use my mag pouches so I can't use them, unfortunately for the stage designers intent(I hate that word) it did not say anything about pockets or magnets or stuffing them in your belt so all those would be fine just not the pouches.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The "it's just a level 1 match" expression that always get's thrown around doesn't exist in the rules. Part of the benefit/responsibility of being affiliated with USPSA is that a member can go to any match in the country and expect that the match follows the rules. Regardless of what level match it is.

The only L1 exemption in the rulebook that I can think of pertains to painting steel after every shooter and mandating that targets must be activated before shooting them.

Also use of shooting boxes, requiring moving targets be activated before being shot, match management stuff and long course round coint( also level 2).

[d_striker]

The WSB can state and mandate almost anything, there are very few limitations on it in the rules, even fewer at a level one match (not that, that would come into effect in this case) it can be used to make interesting stage procedures or horrible stages, it all comes down to how it is written.

In this case it says I can't use my mag pouches so I can't use them, unfortunately for the stage designers intent(I hate that word) it did not say anything about pockets or magnets or stuffing them in your belt so all those would be fine just not the pouches.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The "it's just a level 1 match" expression that always get's thrown around doesn't exist in the rules. Part of the benefit/responsibility of being affiliated with USPSA is that a member can go to any match in the country and expect that the match follows the rules. Regardless of what level match it is.

The only L1 exemption in the rulebook that I can think of pertains to painting steel after every shooter and mandating that targets must be activated before shooting them.

I put this list together from the current rule book. I think I have all the level 1 exemptions. If not, please advise:

Level_1_exemptions.pdf

Good list. The only other thing I can think of is the painting of steel.

Rule 4.3.1.7.1

Edited February 9, 2016 by d_striker

[d_striker]

The WSB can state and mandate almost anything, there are very few limitations on it in the rules, even fewer at a level one match (not that, that would come into effect in this case) it can be used to make interesting stage procedures or horrible stages, it all comes down to how it is written.

In this case it says I can't use my mag pouches so I can't use them, unfortunately for the stage designers intent(I hate that word) it did not say anything about pockets or magnets or stuffing them in your belt so all those would be fine just not the pouches.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The "it's just a level 1 match" expression that always get's thrown around doesn't exist in the rules. Part of the benefit/responsibility of being affiliated with USPSA is that a member can go to any match in the country and expect that the match follows the rules. Regardless of what level match it is.

The only L1 exemption in the rulebook that I can think of pertains to painting steel after every shooter and mandating that targets must be activated before shooting them.

Also use of shooting boxes, requiring moving targets be activated before being shot, match management stuff and long course round coint( also level 2).

What about not using mag pouches?

[mrpredictable]

It being a level 1 match would have no bearing on if that is allowed or not.

[d_striker]

That's what I was getting at.

[ChuckS]

The WSB can state and mandate almost anything, there are very few limitations on it in the rules, even fewer at a level one match (not that, that would come into effect in this case) it can be used to make interesting stage procedures or horrible stages, it all comes down to how it is written.

In this case it says I can't use my mag pouches so I can't use them, unfortunately for the stage designers intent(I hate that word) it did not say anything about pockets or magnets or stuffing them in your belt so all those would be fine just not the pouches.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The "it's just a level 1 match" expression that always get's thrown around doesn't exist in the rules. Part of the benefit/responsibility of being affiliated with USPSA is that a member can go to any match in the country and expect that the match follows the rules. Regardless of what level match it is.

The only L1 exemption in the rulebook that I can think of pertains to painting steel after every shooter and mandating that targets must be activated before shooting them.

I put this list together from the current rule book. I think I have all the level 1 exemptions. If not, please advise:

Level_1_exemptions.pdf

Good list. The only other thing I can think of is the painting of steel.

Rule 4.3.1.7.1

Yup, I posted an old list. The new one is in the post now...

[pmt]

The WSB just needs to state that all mags start on the table and that all reloads must come from the table.

[d_striker]

The WSB just needs to state that all mags start on the table and that all reloads must come from the table.

After the start beep, if you take a mag and put it in your pouch, hasn't the reload come from the table?

[wgj3]

The implication when WSB says, "all reloads must come from table" is that you dont have the option to "stow" mags anywhere but your magwell.

I get the arguement, but WSB's are going to get awfully wordy if we can't accept that some things are intended by the stage designer.

I suppose it would be easy enough to add, "no reloads may come from anywhere on your person", but if we accept the intent of the stage designer, that isn't needed.

[Gary Stevens]

The WSB just needs to state that all mags start on the table and that all reloads must come from the table.

That is true if it is a single location stage. If movement is involved it is a different matter, IMO.

[motosapiens]

The WSB just needs to state that all mags start on the table and that all reloads must come from the table.

That is true if it is a single location stage. If movement is involved it is a different matter, IMO.

in my experience, those sorts of stages always have plenty of barrels in convenientn placees on which to stage mags. I suppose someone who was a jerk could just put one table there and make the low-cap shooters run back and forth, but the stage designer would probably get tarred and feathered and forced to stand with one foot in and one foot out of the shooting area.

[Gary Stevens]

The WSB just needs to state that all mags start on the table and that all reloads must come from the table.

That is true if it is a single location stage, not because the WSB says so but because it is quicker than putting them n a pouch. If movement is involved it is a different matter, IMO as the WSB can't restrict freestyle after the buzzer.

Our sport is free style at its core.

Sorry I messed up my edit.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Gary Stevens

[hwansikcjswo]

I shot the match, if I recall the WSB, "Magazines on table, magazines used during COF cannot come from the belt or put onto shooter's magazine pouch"

First stage from the video below is the stage.

Edited February 9, 2016 by hwansikcjswo

[d_striker]

The implication when WSB says, "all reloads must come from table" is that you dont have the option to "stow" mags anywhere but your magwell.

I get the arguement, but WSB's are going to get awfully wordy if we can't accept that some things are intended by the stage designer.

I suppose it would be easy enough to add, "no reloads may come from anywhere on your person", but if we accept the intent of the stage designer, that isn't needed.

Intent of the stage designer means nothing on multiple levels.