Minor 3 Gun .45 loads

[mont1120]

I recently purchased an STI Eagle in .45, and also got two of the new MBX 18 round mags for competition this season. I still intend to shoot L10, (another subject of derision and endless speculation, accused of uselessness like a third nipple), but for 3 Gun, I'm going to use the STI for pistol.

Beings it takes this old stalactite more time to arrive at a port then to reload, the need to carry 71 rounds in a mag is not needed, so the .45 seems logical to use, especially for the Texas Star and Polish pie rack (possibly a politically incorrect descriptor of a piece of equipment), and has distinct advantages. I have actually hit the support arms on more then one occasion and knocked plates down anyway, so I consider my logic flawless...... ........

I prefer the 230 grain bullet, and use the MG in L10 and major PF, but I really am beginning to prefer the Blue Bullet 230 for competition. Faster velocities with lower powder charges makes it quite attractive for use. 200 grains work well also, so the question is.....

What is the best minor load for 3 gun you shooters have found the best? No sense shooting major, so I want the lowest recoil I can find for the courses of fire. I have Clays, WST, WSF, AA5, and Titegroup to work with. To me the lowest recoil with acceptable accuracy will be the route to go.

[RiggerJJ]

5gns tightgroup, 185 pill, 150pf

jj

[Kosh75287]

Find the powder/charge combination that gives you the equivalent velocity of 4.0/Bull's Eye/200gr. LSWC. Accurate, controllable, and drops plates with adequate but not thunderous force (the latter requires more recoil). A load equivalent to 4.0/Bull's Eye/ 225gr. Lee TC gives SLIGHTLY more recoil, but not much, and enough energy on steel that even marginal hits will drop steel, when the same hits from a 200LSWC so loaded might not. Just my $.02.

[pskys2]

185 SWC coated at 730 f/s, or a 200 swc/rn coated at 700 f/s, both about 135-140 pf. Bayou makes both and so do several others.

I'd start with 4 grains of titegroup or 3.4 clays.

[nwhpfan]

I used to shoot .45 minor in production. 4.2 Bullseye, Red Dot, and TG all worked well; Bullseye was my favorite. I settled on 180 RNFP bullets from www.blackandbluebullets.com but I also used a number of 185 SWC too.

[zzt]

Of the powders you list, Clays and WST will give you the best performance and the lowest recoil. 3.5gr of either will get you around 700fps with a 230 gr bullet. That is just under Major PF. I think you will have much better luck using Clays with 185gr bullets. 3.8gr will give you between 140 and 145PF depending on your barrel. It shoots quite soft.

[wgj3]

Agree with last poster. Low charges of Clays or WST should feel like cheating. Around 3.2-3.5grs to start. Work up as needed for reliability, etc.

[Garmil]

230 grain xtreme rn

1.260 oal

3.8 grain n310

665 fps average

8lb recoil spring

Stupid soft

[Powerslide91]

I've been playing around trying to find a nice 3G load for 45 as well. Just getting started looking at 200gr SWC and Clays at 1.25" OAL. I'm curious what kind of groups would be expected or accepted? I tend to use a sandbag at 25 yards to try to figure out a load the gun likes. So far, I have not seen a real large difference in group size but as I mentioned, I am just starting out.

[zzt]

3.8gr Clays, WLP, 200gr LSWC was my old bullseye load. My pistol would group them in a 1" circle, outside to outside. This particular pistol absolutely hates 185gr LSWC, which is what I would prefer to have used for Minor loads.

[mont1120]

I got as low as 3.1 grains of Clays and shot the 230 grain Blue Bullet, and I have to admit that is light. I started laughing cause it felt like a .38 Special puff load. I have not had much success with SWC's in my Kimber and SA, so I have shied away from using those so far. Next up is the WST, but I cannot imagine the Clays round getting beat for low recoil. I'm sure at 30 yards it will like like a Volkswagen hurtling down the road.

[zzt]

mont1120, I never used SWC for competition (except for the first few). I found the Truncated Cone profile to feed flawlessly.

I used to use a 230gr LTC bullet for pin matches, because everyone said you needed the mass to drive the pins off the table. Recoil was soft, but the gun recoiled upwards more and was slower to return for the second shot. So I went to 200gr LTC and loaded them the same as my bullseye load. Much less upward recoil and faster for the next shot.

[mont1120]

Wonder what caused the recoil impulse to go up so much? Maybe higher pressures from the bullet style?

[Absocold]

I use 230gr exclusively in my .45's and the softest shooting load I have found, by far, was with Alliant E3. There is no official pistol load data for it so you'll have to do some research if you go that route. But it's silly soft and very accurate. Clean too.

[zzt]

If you want to work up loads for e3, start with Clays data. The differences are e3 will be cleaner, give you a tad more velocity per grain, have less (none actually) temperature sensitivity, and none of the pressure spikes you get with Clays as you near max loads.

My 45 load is 3.6gr e3 under a 200gr bullet for 780fps. In 40 I load the same with a 180gr bullet for 960fps (172PF).

[mont1120]

I won't use Clays for .45 major loads, perhaps I am being a little over cautious but why risk it. I use either WSF or 800X for .45 major. I really like 800X, but dear Lord, the way that stuff meters I can do better with oatmeal flakes. But, you can tell when one of the loads got a bit heavy. It will give you that extra flash of light to let you know that piece of steel is going down hard, and fast. Plus, 800X makes my 1911 look like I've been shooting bad black powder.

[Balakay]

3.8gr Clays, WLP, 200gr LSWC was my old bullseye load. My pistol would group them in a 1" circle, outside to outside. This particular pistol absolutely hates 185gr LSWC, which is what I would prefer to have used for Minor loads.

What spring weight are you using with this load?

[Steve RA]

4.2 of Clays with a 200gr LSWC. Very accurate, for me at least.

[mont1120]

Steve, is there any real describable recoil impulse difference between the 200 and 230 weights in your experience. I have tried LSWC and coated in the 200-185 range and can never get them to feed correctly, either in my Kimber or SA. Blue Bullets did have SWC, but the accuracy was dismal. In addition, I was getting rounds failing to feed and getting stuck between the ramp and the barrel with the tip of the bullet stuck firmly in a jam.. What causes the stovepipe issues in your experience?

I am really going for low recoil to reduce the continued workout my aging hands are getting. I have always shot major (need points), and don't want to go to 9MM until I absolutely have to.

[zzt]

Balakay, I run a 14lb spring. It works fine with the 156PF target/bullseye loads and 172PF Limited loads that I use. It also works with 135-140PF loads, but the brass barely dribbles out.

[earplug]

185 SWC 3.5 Bullseye gives me 134 PF. Bullseye runs cleaner at low charge weights and you can find it on the shelf.

[zzt]

mont1120, first off, double stack 45ACP pistol have a lot of feeding problems. You have to work on a OAL that works. I'd suggest calling STI and asking for advice. When I was looking to buy a double stack for Limited, I called STI and talked to several of their advisors. I wanted to stay 45, because I didn't want to load another caliber. I was warned off it. STI told me about the feeding issues. They said it was possible to correct it, but it might take some effort. I dropped the 45 idea and went 40. Perhaps they have some advice for modifying the feed ramp, follower or OAL.

You complain about recoil, but insist on using heavy bullets. Everyone experiences recoil a little differently. What works for me might not be your cup of tea. For a given velocity, a heavier bullet will feel harder in you hand. For a given Power factor, a heavier bullet will feel softer in your hand. So if you are wanting the lightest recoil with acceptable accuracy, as you have oft said, you want a light bullet at lower velocity using a lighter spring. For example, a 152gr or a 160gr bullet loaded to 129PF using WST, Clays, e3 or N310 will give you a soft shooting, accurate loads that you can barely feel. You can do the same with a 185gr bullet.

Until I ran out of the powder, one of my all time accurate bullseye loads was 200gr over 4.0gr American Select for 681fps. Amazingly accurate and stupid soft.

Here is what I would recommend. Go out and buy sample packs of various bullet weights. I'd suggest Dardas bullets. http://www.dardascastbullets.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=dardas&Category_Code=45 Buy 100 round packs of his 150, 160, 185, 200 and 230 grain bullets. Make sure you get some of his 200gr Round Nose, Flat Point, bevel base bullets. If they don't feed in your pistol, it's time for a visit to a gunsmith. You have WST, Clays and TiteGroup. They are the ones you want to play with. I'll tell you right now you will get the softest feeling loads at a given PF with Clays. Load them to the same PF in the 135-140 range and see for your self how different bullet weights feel on your hand and in upward recoil.

Having done this same experiment, I already know the answer, but it may be different for you. You may tolerate the slow mo push of a 230gr slug better than the faster push of lighter bullets and don't care about being back on target faster. I will say that all of the competitive shooters I hang with that shot 230gr bullets have all gone to 185. Why? They were tired of losing. Now their times are faster.

There is an ongoing debate at my club over 40sw Major loads for Limited. Most use 180gr slugs, but a sizable minority like the 155s driven fast. No one is going to win that debate. For me, splits are faster with the 155s, but it is harder on the hands and I don't care for the sensation. If I was going to shoot Minor, I'd use the 155s in a heartbeat.

The point of this rambling post is that there will be some combination of bullet weight, powder and velocity that will just feel right. The only way to find out is to try them yourself.

[mont1120]

I hope my question are not so much complaining as instead of trying to find the better combination to lessen the effects that are certainly piling up on everyones bones. I choose the .45 specifically because in my case, and again this is subjective, the slower impulse of the .45 "feels" easier to manage on my part. I agree a lot of it may be indeed mental.

As I read through the posts, it is apparent in my case the slower the impulse, the better it feels, even if the actual foot pounds of the comparative rounds are equal. It always does go back to what works in the combination of bullet weight, powder selection, and the actual firearm. I will give the 185's another try, but for some odd reason they seem to consistently jam on me.

But after all, the trial and error is part of the fun.

[Absocold]

If your gun doesn't care for the 185's, go back to 200's. The difference isn't worth the headache unless you're willing to take the time and effort to figure out the problem and fix it.

With 200's and the powders you listed in original post, Clays will be softest. WST will be a little bit harder but meters easier and gives more consistent velocities over varying temperatures. WST seems to produce less smoke and shoot a little cleaner, Clays smells better when burnt (and we all know how important smell is when you're at the range getting your aromatherapy). Some target shooters swear by Titegroup but I get so-so results whenever I give it a try.

[LSnSC]

230 grain Blue Bullet, 4.2 grains of Tightgroup, 1.250 OAL. Federal primer with mixed brass.   This load is accurate, shoots soft, and functions out of every 45 ACP I own.