motosapiens Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 I think that creating a maximum magazine length rule will generate an "Arms Race" when its not needed. How many truly competitive CO pistols out there can't get 16 rounds of 9mm in a standard magazine? Why should only 9mm guns can be competitive? Admittedly, there aren't azzloads of folks shooting 40 or 45 in production, and I would guess there won't be tons of them in CO either, but there are some. If I shoot CO, I will probably start with a cz 40 (12 rounds). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 The ten round limit along with Minor scoring shifts the emphasis from speed to accuracy. Higher round-count divisions coupled with Major scoring tend to shift the focus more to speed. Rather than looking at CO in isolation, instead look at it as part of a comprehensive line up of divisions: Limited/Open are dominated by increased capacity Major guns, the loss of a single point for a peripheral hit along with the extra rounds that allows make-up shots with minimal need for standing reloads. Production/CO are low capacity Minor guns, the additional loss of points for hits outside the A-zone and the limited magazine capacity make these divisions markedly different from Limited/Open and therefore provide for clear differences that appeal to different competitors. Increasing magazine capacity for Production/CO will essentially reduce the choices for competitors. We have a good mix of divisions; Both cheaper and expensive iron-sighted divisions in Production and Limited, with similar choices on either end of the cost spectrum for CO and Open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 BritinUSA brings up an interesting topic, the higher round count divisions are about speed, and the limited capacity divisions are about accuracy. A 16 round CO would be a real balance or speed and accuracy to perform well. Just a thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 So currently some divisions are only offered as low cap while others only high cap. Why not give all the divisions options like Limited/L10? We can have Open/O10, Limited/L10, Production/P10, Carry Optics/CO10. For Production and Carry Optics we can choose 15 rounds, 16 rounds, 140mm, 130mm, etc. whatever most people want. Allow all these divisions for lets say 2 years as a testing period. After 2 years we review stats from all divisions and any that don't make x number or x percent of total participation get the axe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronArcher Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 I'm with the medium capacity crowd. Less than open/limited, more than Prod/SS. Make it a unique class, not just production+an optic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trgt Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 ... We have a good mix of divisions; Both cheaper and expensive iron-sighted divisions in Production and Limited, with similar choices on either end of the cost spectrum for CO and Open. Totally agree. Ultimately I don't thing the mag capacity of CO will affect it much one way or another if it's stays where it's at, or changes upward. But 10 rounds does keep it most accessible to all, both on provisioning of equipment, as well as locations for major matches where folks will travel to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbob21 Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 The way this thread is going... It sounds like y'all are up for turning a limited minor gun into a production optics gun... (With 10+ mag capacity) Cheaper to buy an optic and slide cut/dovetail mount vs buying a new steel pistol to compete in production and x2 or x3 cheaper than buying a new 2011 to compete in limited/open. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronArcher Posted May 10, 2016 Share Posted May 10, 2016 Personally, I'd be taking a production gun and putting an optic on it... And hopefully filling my mags to something close to capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukedrywalker Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 10 round limmit is gone.https://uspsa.org/document_library/2017/APPENDIX D7_DNROI_2117.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, Lukedrywalker said: 10 round limmit is gone.https://uspsa.org/document_library/2017/APPENDIX D7_DNROI_2117.pdf Someone didn't bother to read the forum or look at the thread date. This is a zombie from 2016 - we've discussed the new rules in other threads on this. Edited February 22, 2017 by mreed911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukedrywalker Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Excuse me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onepocket Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 The new question is will the new magazine bump save CO? With 23 rounds I may even have to give it a try, open lite sounds fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCTaylor Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 31 minutes ago, Onepocket said: The new question is will the new magazine bump save CO? With 23 rounds I may even have to give it a try, open lite sounds fun. The division aint going away. This will just help get more folks to shoot that division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) 42 minutes ago, Onepocket said: The new question is will the new magazine bump save CO? With 23 rounds I may even have to give it a try, open lite sounds fun. Save it from what? "Beginners" can start in CO with an "open lite" gun with factory ammo and $719 + tax (Cablea's) + maybe a couple or three 140mm mags, mag pouch and holster. All in for under $1,000 (if not $900). That's pretty good. FWIW, I consider my S&W Victory with an optic to be closer to "open lite" when I shoot steel challenge since the optic is frame mounted on that pistol and never moves. Would be interesting to see S&W take that approach and make a "Victory 9mm" that functioned similarly and the optic didn't move... Edited February 22, 2017 by mreed911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onepocket Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 2 people are shooting it in S.C. I do think changing the round count to 23 was a great decision and will bring lots more people into the division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Onepocket said: 2 people are shooting it in S.C. I do think changing the round count to 23 was a great decision and will bring lots more people into the division. To be clear, it's not "a round count of 23," it's 140mm mags for your platform. Edit: Round count may vary +/- 2 (or more) depending on platform. Edited February 22, 2017 by mreed911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 12 minutes ago, mreed911 said: To be clear, it's not "a round count of 23," it's 140mm mags for your platform. Round count may vary +/- 2. To be clear it's actually 141.25mm magazine length, there is no maximum round count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 3 minutes ago, bret said: To be clear it's actually 141.25mm magazine length, there is no maximum round count. True, that's clear-er-er. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukedrywalker Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 I just added mag extensions to my S&W mags. They now hold 23 rounds. My first thought was when holding the gun with mag installed was, wow this thing is heavy. I have not fired the gun yet but I'm wondering if the added weight will have much effect on recoil? I'm so used to shooting it with 10 rounds it feels like a new gun in my hands. What are your thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 15 minutes ago, Lukedrywalker said: I just added mag extensions to my S&W mags. They now hold 23 rounds. My first thought was when holding the gun with mag installed was, wow this thing is heavy. I have not fired the gun yet but I'm wondering if the added weight will have much effect on recoil? I'm so used to shooting it with 10 rounds it feels like a new gun in my hands. What are your thoughts? Does the gun + unloaded mag exceed the weight limit for CO? Do the mags extend longer than 141.25mm? Those are the first two questions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukedrywalker Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 NO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreed911 Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 54 minutes ago, Lukedrywalker said: NO! Awesome! Which optic did you go with? I've seen quite the range on the guns out there. I'm sporting a Burris FF3 on my Glock and a Vortex Viper on my S&W Victory for Steel Challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukedrywalker Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 S&W C.O.R.E with Apex barrel and Trijicon RMR. I am very happy with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quack Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 The division aint going away. This will just help get more folks to shoot that division. This...Good thing I waited on buying my pads. I almost got production pads, but bought 140mm pads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHLChris Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 (edited) On 5/9/2016 at 4:32 PM, motosapiens said: Why should only 9mm guns can be competitive? Admittedly, there aren't azzloads of folks shooting 40 or 45 in production, and I would guess there won't be tons of them in CO either, but there are some. If I shoot CO, I will probably start with a cz 40 (12 rounds). I have a Glock 22 that is set up exactly like my Glock 17 (with same frame mods and both with a milled DeltaPoint). My 22 is for home defense and my 17 is for CO. Sometimes, if I feel like carrying the extra weight, I'll bring the 22 as a back-up gun with a bunch of minor loads I make with 155gr bullets and Titegroup. I much prefer 23 rounds of 9mm over 20 rounds of 40, but since I always need one reload anyway, they both are fine. Edited March 8, 2017 by CHLChris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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