TonytheTiger Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Now that I have your attention... I have a question regarding just how anal I should be about 223 brass trim length for 3 gun use. I'm just getting started reloading and I mindlessly set up my WFT to trim at 1.750 just because that seemed to be the magic number in the books. All seemed fine till I started noticing cases as low as 1.74. A little research and some measuring of all my Freedom reman ammo (all trimmed to 1.74) put my mind at ease. Back to trimming! Started noticing some cases getting past the WFT at up to 1.753! Fearing the world was coming to an end I consulted the interwebs. Turns out it's common for new factory ammo to be +/- .010, and some measurements of other factory ammo I had found plenty at the 1.760 mark. All was well, back to trimming! 1000000 trimmed cases later and I never wanted to touch even a brass doorknob ever again. Oh and after weighing the cases it was actually only around 1500 cases. Suddenly I find myself reevaluating my decision to load rifle ammo. I decided do a little more research. Ended with me taking measurements of three barrels I have and all chambers where over 1.78, which is apparently the norm for non custom chambered AR barrels. So my new plan is to set up my WFT to trim at 1.765, thus going from trimming roughly 85-90% of my brass to about 5%, with about .020 of chamber wiggle room to be safe. Let's hear your opinions, but keep in mind I'm quite pleased with the sub MOA accuracy of my loads thus far and as long as my new plan doesn't affect that, fine accuracy isn't really part of the discussion. Also, like most people asking questions on here, my mind is already made up, unless the more experienced guys here see a legitimate problem here and raise red flags regarding the safety of my fingers or eyes. Thanks in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carharttfarmer Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Are you crimping your ammo? If so triming makes a difference. If not .73 vs .78 doesn't matter to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddKS Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Leave your trimmer set at 1.750. Rather than trimming all your brass, lock your calipers at 1.765 and use that as a go/no go gauge. This way you only trim those cases that have grown beyond 1.765. I trim all my brass the first load but that is as much about chamfering the case mounth as it is about case length (I am using a Giraud Tri way to trim and debur/chamfer at same time). Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted January 8, 2016 Author Share Posted January 8, 2016 (edited) Are you crimping your ammo? If so triming makes a difference. If not .73 vs .78 doesn't matter to meVery light crimp on Hornady 55fmj-bt with cannelure. Between my seating depth and the generous size of the cannelure it appears that I'll still be crimping in the cannelure at both extremes of my brass length. Edited January 8, 2016 by TonytheTiger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 (edited) Get a Dillon trimmer, put it on your processing head after your sizer and set it at 1.750. No pencil sharpener trimmer time wasting/multiple handling of brass, and wearing out your fingers. Takes me about 4 hours to procees a FULL 5 gallon Homer bucket of brass. You will get more consistent brass, ie; more consistent ammo. jmho jj Edited January 8, 2016 by RiggerJJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted January 8, 2016 Author Share Posted January 8, 2016 Leave your trimmer set at 1.750. Rather than trimming all your brass, lock your calipers at 1.765 and use that as a go/no go gauge. This way you only trim those cases that have grown beyond 1.765. I trim all my brass the first load but that is as much about chamfering the case mounth as it is about case length (I am using a Giraud Tri way to trim and debur/chamfer at same time). Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk That's an interesting solution, I may adopt it. Eventually I'll be running an RT1500 so this will all be a moot point anyway, but till my wallet cools down from my initial investment in reloading equipment, I definitely need to find a more efficient method that hurts my fingers less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted January 8, 2016 Author Share Posted January 8, 2016 Get a Dillon trimmer, put it on your processing head after your sizer and set it at 1.750. No pencil sharpener trimmer time wasting/multiple handling of brass, and wearing out your fingers. Takes me about 4 hours to procees a FULL 5 gallon Homer bucket of brass. You will get more consistent brass, ie; more consistent ammo. jmho jj Yup that's the plan, just not anytime real soon. I also just discovered the Swage-It primer pocket swaging magic press attachment. I'm not going to be able to sleep tonight I'm so excited about eliminating the two most awful steps of my loading process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Mitch Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 I trim a little short, and reload til the case splits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 You really ought to change the thread title a bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted January 8, 2016 Author Share Posted January 8, 2016 Never! It's the best part of this thread! Caught your eye didn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 (edited) Get a Dillon trimmer, put it on your processing head after your sizer and set it at 1.750. No pencil sharpener trimmer time wasting/multiple handling of brass, and wearing out your fingers. Takes me about 4 hours to procees a FULL 5 gallon Homer bucket of brass. You will get more consistent brass, ie; more consistent ammo. jmho jj Yup that's the plan, just not anytime real soon. I also just discovered the Swage-It primer pocket swaging magic press attachment. I'm not going to be able to sleep tonight I'm so excited about eliminating the two most awful steps of my loading process.Use a Super Swage. The swage-it voids the wonderful Dillon warranty on their presses...And to those out there who use a drill bit or deburring tool or other improper tool to drill out the swage; stop! I throw away about 1/2 of my range pickup 223 brass because of improperly drilled (over-done) primer pockets that will not hold a primer for an auto loading rifle. The right tool is called a primer pocket reamer, it bottoms out in the pocket preventing over-reaming the pocket...best tool is the Super Swage. Edited January 8, 2016 by RiggerJJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dauntedfuture Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 (edited) The reason that your OAL trim lengths very is that you are trimming indexed off the shoulder of the case. Contrary to popular belief, there is variation in cases when sized. In perticular, if you are picking up range brass fired in different rifles and size it all you will get some different readings or position of the shoulder reletive to the base of the case. As your trimmer indexes off the shoulder you will have variation in the length of the trimmed cases. You are supposed to keep OAL to 1.750 and 1.760, your trim to length is 1.750 and should be the minimum you trim to. Im practical terms and depending on your rifle, in most cases you can%2 Edited January 8, 2016 by dauntedfuture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRick Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 I don't even measure them... kind of. I size them, then I run them through the case gauge. Safes a lot of time when 80% of my cases don't need any trimming. From there they get separated depending on what they need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Never! It's the best part of this thread! Caught your eye didn't it? There were just so many smart (pardon the expression) ass things that could be said,.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebwake Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 yes.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamge Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 (edited) Now that I have your attention... I have a question regarding just how anal I should be about 223 brass trim length for 3 gun use. I'm just getting started reloading and I mindlessly set up my WFT to trim at 1.750 just because that seemed to be the magic number in the books. All seemed fine till I started noticing cases as low as 1.74. A little research and some measuring of all my Freedom reman ammo (all trimmed to 1.74) put my mind at ease. Back to trimming! Started noticing some cases getting past the WFT at up to 1.753! Fearing the world was coming to an end I consulted the interwebs. Turns out it's common for new factory ammo to be +/- .010, and some measurements of other factory ammo I had found plenty at the 1.760 mark. All was well, back to trimming! 1000000 trimmed cases later and I never wanted to touch even a brass doorknob ever again. Oh and after weighing the cases it was actually only around 1500 cases. Suddenly I find myself reevaluating my decision to load rifle ammo. I decided do a little more research. Ended with me taking measurements of three barrels I have and all chambers where over 1.78, which is apparently the norm for non custom chambered AR barrels. So my new plan is to set up my WFT to trim at 1.765, thus going from trimming roughly 85-90% of my brass to about 5%, with about .020 of chamber wiggle room to be safe. Let's hear your opinions, but keep in mind I'm quite pleased with the sub MOA accuracy of my loads thus far and as long as my new plan doesn't affect that, fine accuracy isn't really part of the discussion. Also, like most people asking questions on here, my mind is already made up, unless the more experienced guys here see a legitimate problem here and raise red flags regarding the safety of my fingers or eyes. Thanks in advance! To me the case length gets determined by the bullet's cannellure and max OAL to fit in AR magazines. If I was to trim at 1.760 and seat to middle of cannellure of my particular bullet of choice my OAL would be 2.260, which is very close to not fitting in an AR magazine. The second factor is that if you decide to trim at 1.760, you are right, you will only end up trimming like 5% of your brass. But that means your brass will have a huge spread of 1.740 to 1.765, which the accuracy people would tell you is bad for accuracy. Edited January 8, 2016 by adamge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tech32 Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Overrated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted January 9, 2016 Author Share Posted January 9, 2016 Get a Dillon trimmer, put it on your processing head after your sizer and set it at 1.750. No pencil sharpener trimmer time wasting/multiple handling of brass, and wearing out your fingers. Takes me about 4 hours to procees a FULL 5 gallon Homer bucket of brass. You will get more consistent brass, ie; more consistent ammo. jmho jj I just reread this a few times and have a question. I always pictured my eventual process toolhead with a universal decapper on 1 and the RT1500 sitting on the the size/trim die on 3. You mention the trimmer after the sizer? Explain please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted January 9, 2016 Author Share Posted January 9, 2016 The reason that your OAL trim lengths very is that you are trimming indexed off the shoulder of the case. Contrary to popular belief, there is variation in cases when sized. In perticular, if you are picking up range brass fired in different rifles and size it all you will get some different readings or position of the shoulder reletive to the base of the case. As your trimmer indexes off the shoulder you will have variation in the length of the trimmed cases. You are supposed to keep OAL to 1.750 and 1.760, your trim to length is 1.750 and should be the minimum you trim to. Im practical terms and depending on your rifle, in most cases you can%2 Yup, I came to the same conclusion after taking a lot of measurements. With my trimmer set for 1.750 almost all of my trimmed brass is between .748-.752 which is far more consistent than most of the factory ammo I measured. I realized I was splitting hairs at the point and decided to stop getting excited about such small variation. And my rifle doesn't seem to care, so why should I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blairmckenzie1 Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Different brands of brass fired from different guns (i.e. Range brass) will stretch to a different length after sizing. Sizing before trimming will give you a more consistent length. A case that might be short enough to not to need trimming may stretch enough to need a slight trim after sizing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted January 9, 2016 Author Share Posted January 9, 2016 Yup, all my trimming is post-sizing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Processing head Station 1: full length sizer/decap set to size most of the case. Station 3: size/trim die. TUMBLE BRASS TO REMOVE LUBE, AND BURRS LEFT ON CASE NECKS Loading head Station 1: universal decap to clean tumbling media from primer pocket/flash hole. Station 2 thru the rest: primer, powder, bullet seat, crimp. Puts an even load on the processing head, and again, it gets more consistent brass. Case lube is a must! Sizing before trim is called for for consistency. Yea, that word again... Getting the most consistency in length, sizing, bullet seat, powder throw, etc is important for knowing where the bullet hits the target. For example,In long range (1k yards or so), a .2gn difference in powder throw can mean the difference between hitting and missing a 10 inch target. Not saying you need to shoot your AR 1k yards, just making a point. Having consistently built ammo will give you a consistently running AR, AND you will know where the bullet should go at a given distance. All of the stuff I do I got from the gurus at Dillon...and it works. happy Loading! jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 You really ought to change the thread title a bit Nothing good could come out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonytheTiger Posted January 9, 2016 Author Share Posted January 9, 2016 Thanks for the breakdown JJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgrs Posted January 29, 2016 Share Posted January 29, 2016 Processing head Station 1: full length sizer/decap set to size most of the case. <snip> Why FL size before FL sizing again if you are using the Dillon size/trim die? Always looking to improve my processes. My prep toolhead looks like: 1: universal decap 2: empty 3: RT1200 FL size/trim 4:empty 5: lyman M die loading toolhead 1: universal decap 2: powder 3: empty 4: forster micrometer seat die 5: dillon crimp (if using cannalured bullets) I found that the lyman M die with a slight amount of neck flaring mitigated damage to bullets induced by not chamfering after rt1200 trimming. Otherwise flat base were difficult to seat and many bullet types would shave jacket while seating. Groups also tightened noticeably. YMMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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