Jadeslade Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 This is by far the most pointless, unnecessarily, and idiotic thing I have seen this sport do or even suggest for that matter. Funny most people (according to the poll) think its a great idea. But you are entitled to your opinion. Pat I thought it was a great idea until I saw no silencers in the rules. Why? I mean 9mm carbine = short barrel, silencer. 16" is for ATF regulations. This is shooting competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bosshoss Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 This is by far the most pointless, unnecessarily, and idiotic thing I have seen this sport do or even suggest for that matter. Funny most people (according to the poll) think its a great idea. But you are entitled to your opinion. Pat I thought it was a great idea until I saw no silencers in the rules. Why? I mean 9mm carbine = short barrel, silencer. 16" is for ATF regulations. This is shooting competition. Timer won't pick up the shots reliably with a suppressor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWLAZS Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 ou can run a PCC on a pistol stage with zero changes not to say some might not occur. There were more new PCC's at SHOT this year than in any three years combined I can remember. 9mm is cheap again but .223 is still up there so a lot of people are buying them. We can give them a spot to shoot and give them an entry point into USPSA or we can pass. As much as I've shot USPSA in the last year it really doesn't matter to me. No you can't run a PCC with zero changes. the proposed appendix proves that as well as having to modify positions that PCC shooters shoot from in some stages. Saying zero changes is just wrong If PCC was so popular at SHOT then it shouldn't be to hard to create stand alone matches. I mean if there is so much industry support why not. Why not? I know several matches can and have run PCC with zero changes to the match. Yes PCC has different start positions but it has zero effect, well maybe 10 extra seconds reading the WSB. Creating standalone matches is completely different. I'm assuming you've never done it yourself. I set up matches all the time. You're not the only one who has set up and ran matches in this discussion. Personally I like to draw more shooters not turn them away. But you're okay with alienating some current members? That WILL happen, whether you like it or not. One moderator on this forum has told me that if PCC actually becomes official, he may switch to another shooting sport. Yeah, now you guys will say "if that's his attitude, let him go" or something similar. The FIRST step in growing a sport is the maintain the current members. You may lose a few but your likely to gain far more. Honestly those saying they will leave makes no sense to me since it does not detract from their division or shooting. Its like they are mad that someone else is having fun. What makes you say we are likely to gain far more new shooters then we would loose? What really bugs me is the comments about how pcc will not detract from my division. How do you know that? PCC will change course design there is no way around it. Setting a stage up so that its fun to shoot with a rifle is different then fun to shoot with a handgun. Our stages and matches will change. Its just how people think when they set stuff up. A stage designer sets a stage up with an idea of how he wants folks to shoot it. It may punish or reward any one platform over the other or not. Ever shoot with a left handed guy they bitch about the right handedness of stages all the time. It has to happen, someone will walk up to set a stage up and they will say that will be a hard lean with my rifle and adjust their cof. We have had several examples of stages set up at matches that would have been impossible to shoot with a rifle. We have all seen the hold a rope in one hand and lean around the wall stages. I know there is some you tube video of someone doing it but that does not really matter I can do lots of things in practice that I would not want to try to do on the clock. People will think about that when they set stages up. They may do stuff to make PCC harder kind of a !@#$ statement or adjust it for safety or ease of use. It affects the stages I shoot. I am not worried about being losing to a guy shooting a rifle. You guys are stuck on that. I know a few people have mentioned it not being fair between divisions because the long gun guys get to start holding their guns and its against the rules for handgun guys to do that. I don't care about that. I just like my matches the way they are. Besides stage design influence. There is some extra work involved in preparing a match for pcc. Just in case some one shows up. I might not be huge labor intense things but its still work. Back to the presumptions of 'undesirable change' and 'negative effect'. Now just threaten to quit over the introduction of PCC and we will have a drama trifecta. Beat that cow, it ain't dead yet! Your are presuming nothing will change whats the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walküre Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 (edited) There is no proof it will cause any inconvenience so that argument is out. You will get more shooters or at the very least pistol guys wanting to run 2 divisions so double the money for the club. And that argument can be used right back at you - there is no proof that you will draw in double the shooters by offering PCC. Again, at least among the local shooters I hang out with, none of us have expressed any real interest in shooting PCC at any of our regular matches, despite the fact that several of us already have suitable rifles. I thought it was a great idea until I saw no silencers in the rules. Why? I mean 9mm carbine = short barrel, silencer. 16" is for ATF regulations. This is shooting competition. Timer won't pick up the shots reliably with a suppressor. I haven't tried to time a suppressed 9mm rifle/carbine, but at least with my pistols, I have had a CED 7000 register them after adjusting sensitivity. There is a risk of picking up more echoes and such, though. I would rather see them permitted and see if it actually becomes a problem - this is provisional after all. Edited March 13, 2016 by Walküre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 This is by far the most pointless, unnecessarily, and idiotic thing I have seen this sport do or even suggest for that matter. Funny most people (according to the poll) think its a great idea. But you are entitled to your opinion. Pat So I'm supposed to change my opinion because other people think otherwise? Is that your argument? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 This is by far the most pointless, unnecessarily, and idiotic thing I have seen this sport do or even suggest for that matter. Funny most people (according to the poll) think its a great idea. But you are entitled to your opinion. Pat So I'm supposed to change my opinion because other people think otherwise? Is that your argument? Nope just saying your opinion does not matter anymore than anyone elses and on this issue you are outnumbered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 (edited) There is no proof it will cause any inconvenience so that argument is out. You will get more shooters or at the very least pistol guys wanting to run 2 divisions so double the money for the club. And that argument can be used right back at you - there is no proof that you will draw in double the shooters by offering PCC. Again, at least among the local shooters I hang out with, none of us have expressed any real interest in shooting PCC at any of our regular matches, despite the fact that several of us already have suitable rifles. I thought it was a great idea until I saw no silencers in the rules. Why? I mean 9mm carbine = short barrel, silencer. 16" is for ATF regulations. This is shooting competition. Timer won't pick up the shots reliably with a suppressor. I haven't tried to time a suppressed 9mm rifle/carbine, but at least with my pistols, I have had a CED 7000 register them after adjusting sensitivity. There is a risk of picking up more echoes and such, though. I would rather see them permitted and see if it actually becomes a problem - this is provisional after all. Could be a regional thing because the way things look here on the site there is a lot of interest enough to have its own division created. That seems to be the best compromise if your club does not want it don't offer it. But for those of us that do don't stand in our way. Also I did not say you would double your shooters but rather you will get people who want to shoot both divisions at a match. Its easy to run two divsions when you don't have to switch out holsters and can have your other mags pre loaded. I shoot 2 divisions up here all the time and still manage to find time to RO. Edited March 13, 2016 by Alaskapopo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 This is by far the most pointless, unnecessarily, and idiotic thing I have seen this sport do or even suggest for that matter. Funny most people (according to the poll) think its a great idea. But you are entitled to your opinion. Pat I thought it was a great idea until I saw no silencers in the rules. Why? I mean 9mm carbine = short barrel, silencer. 16" is for ATF regulations. This is shooting competition. I think SBR's and suppressors are great but not everyone can get them or afford them. But most can get a 16 inch 9mm. I would not have minded if they were legal under the rules other than the issue with the timers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walküre Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 (edited) Also I did not say you would double your shooters but rather you will get people who want to shoot both divisions at a match. Its easy to run two divsions when you don't have to switch out holsters and can have your other mags pre loaded. I shoot 2 divisions up here all the time and still manage to find time to RO. You said "double the money for the club", so that means double the paid entries (which is what I meant by "shooters"), regardless of the number of actual persons. There are already clubs around here that offer second entries. I don't see there being that level of interest in PCC to suddenly make the rest want to shoot twice and/or draw enough additional PCC-only shooters to actually see a doubling in the number of total entries. I think that trying to sell any division on a pseudo financial angle generally isn't a good way to approach things. (That is, I don't think it's good for the sport to drive decisions by saying we should do X because we think it will make clubs more money. It might be the case that clubs see more entries as a result, but that shouldn't be the rationale used to get rule changes in place.) Edited March 14, 2016 by Walküre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 Also I did not say you would double your shooters but rather you will get people who want to shoot both divisions at a match. Its easy to run two divsions when you don't have to switch out holsters and can have your other mags pre loaded. I shoot 2 divisions up here all the time and still manage to find time to RO. You said "double the money for the club", so that means double the paid entries (which is what I meant by "shooters"), regardless of the number of actual persons. There are already clubs around here that offer second entries. I don't see there being that level of interest in PCC to suddenly make the rest want to shoot twice and/or draw enough additional PCC-only shooters to actually see a doubling in the number of total entries. I think that trying to sell any division on a pseudo financial angle generally isn't a good way to approach things. (That is, I don't think it's good for the sport to drive decisions by saying we should do X because we think it will make clubs more money. It might be the case that clubs see more entries as a result, but that shouldn't be the rationale used to get rule changes in place.) No it means when someone pays for two divisions its double the money for the club. Please don't put words in my mouth. What i said was clear. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morpheus Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 Time for a name change .... USPHSA FTW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatekeeper Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 My wife has been having some medical problems that have decreased her grip strength to the point she doesn't feel comfortable with gripping a handgun in competition. PCC will allow her to continue to enjoy the sport she loves. Now I just have to build a lightweight carbine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 I can't wait for PCC to start officially, it will be great for everyone! Sent from the range Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 You, get to be the RO that has to count to 30 all the time. I am pretty sure nobody will count that high while running shooters so that makes it a rule that will not be properly enforced, that sounds like a bad way to start a division. Don't count rounds, count extra shots. 32 round stage, everybody has to reload or welcome to no-score. 31 round stage, no extra shots without a reload 30 round stage, 1 extra allowed and so on up to about 5 when the RO can quit caring. Realistically it would get policed like Open mags do. Fellow competitors will call out the cheaters. And, based on 20+ years playing this game, the reason to argue about non-existent rules now is once they become 'provisional', they pretty much are set in stone because everybody that "invested" in the new division complains mightily if their pet thing gets bounced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 Not what happened with CO and investment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowryWeaponsSystems Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 My local range has been doing the pcc thing in our monthly steel match for 3 months now. Not many shoot it yet, but its also winter here. It will catch on, but it may take some time. The real question is, since its run what you brung, how is it fair between irons and optics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 That's like asking how is it fair between irons and optics in open. Its an optic divisio. Put a dot on it if you want to be competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowryWeaponsSystems Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 That's like asking how is it fair between irons and optics in open. Its an optic divisio. Put a dot on it if you want to be competitive. I already have an optic. Ive just noticed that some dont. It just wasn't talked about in the group at the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beastly Posted March 20, 2016 Share Posted March 20, 2016 See the sights you prefer to see. Quality red dot optics are inexpensive. Shoot irons if you prefer irons, I see some guys shooting irons that are surprisingly competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 My local range has been doing the pcc thing in our monthly steel match for 3 months now. Not many shoot it yet, but its also winter here. It will catch on, but it may take some time. The real question is, since its run what you brung, how is it fair between irons and optics? Since you mentioned steel I'll point out that in steel challenge we do distinguish between optic and irons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 PCC http://freedomordnance.com/product/fm-9-9mm-belt-fed-ar-15m-16-upper-receiver-black-friday-stock/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 PCC http://freedomordnance.com/product/fm-9-9mm-belt-fed-ar-15m-16-upper-receiver-black-friday-stock/ I had someone run this belt-fed AR15/9 at one of our local matches. It ran OK (from the shooter's relieved look after the stage, I suspect it does not always run 100%). Loading and unloading was an adventure. I was not convinced that it is the hot ticket for this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishop414 Posted March 21, 2016 Share Posted March 21, 2016 Plus, you think brass chickens are a pain, wait till the shooter has to get his links back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowryWeaponsSystems Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 opinions on bracing off the cheek with a sig brace?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 opinions on bracing off the cheek with a sig brace?? Not allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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