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Pistol Caliber Carbine. (PCC)


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What is the real problem with PCC. Honestly, it looks like the real problem is pride. There is apparent undertone of insecurity. That shooters who enjoy seeing their names on the top of the overall standings will now be playing second fiddle to deviant PCC shooters.

The other counter argument is we cannot afford the influx of possible new shooters, we are already at capacity. Give me a break! That is a very selfish,egotistical, and bluntly ignorant evaluation of the current status of the sport. Firstly PCC class would not change the number shooters allowed in a given match. Secondly, if and only if it was so popular, it would only drive the need for more local matches.

Lastly on the counter issue of safety. That is dogmatic stupidity. As if the introduction of these firearms will open a Pandora's box of safety violations. Violations that we will not be able to regulate.

Local matches have allowed the use of PCC for years. They are extremely fun and safe. USPSA is a perfect forum for them. The only issue is the classifiers and stages requiring a up range start. You the shooter have to be creative as to stay within the rules, but in lieu of official rules at present, it isn't unsolvable.

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So let me get this straight, you're saying that the people that don't agree with you are: Prideful, insecure, selfish, egotistical, bluntly ignorant, and dogmatically stupid.

Very "adult" of you. :closedeyes:

I truly appreciate the fact you read the complete post. However, I am disappointed that you were unable to discern my point. Since you asked the question, I feel obligated to respond. As to my feeling on people who may have a differing views. If you're opinion is based within the context of the terms you highlighted. I unequivocally stand behind the words that were used, especially in the context they were used. If these adjectives have offend you, they have accurately hit their mark.

If you find issue with my overall statement, then please offer a more intelligent rebuttal. Try to keep it in the issue of PCC. Explain how I am wrong.

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Edited by Rangerdug
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-30 Carbine, has almost the same ballistic profile as a .357 Mag. So should also be allowed.

Mike Foley said No to 30 Carbine on the USPSA forum.

If you are bagging it, you bag it immediately after the unload and show clear. It is no different than how most handle rimfire carbines in steel challenge. You either rack it on your cart, or you bag it.

Only problem with that idea is that you typically end the stage at a position other than where you started.

Then you clear it, put the flag in it, and walk back to the start of the stage to bag it.

See my previous post.

"Flag" means nothing to me.

Nor does a chamber flag exist anywhere in my states criminal statutes. You point a gun at someone, loaded or not "chamber flag" or not you just broke the law. Period.

You point it at me, "flag" or not you are gonna have consequences.

It's a bummer this debate has come to this, but oh well. Im not going anywhere and I'm not gonna let anyone put me at risk for a game. Want to add a division, perhaps you should have had a little respect. Can jam it, and see what you get.

Ultimo-Hombre,

First let me say I don't care either way about this rule change so this posting isn't motivated by an opinion on the rule. I would never condone unsafe gun handling and don't think we should support unsafe gun handling in any sport. I also respect anyone's decision to avoid areas or matches where unsafe gun handling occurs. What bothers me though are people that make rash and wild statements that they can't back up with fact. I am also an Idaho resident and I think that you may have misspoken regarding your knowledge of the law. You said, " You point a gun at someone, loaded or not "chamber flag" or not you just broke the law. Period." you also said, " If USPSA dosnt penalize him, state statutes will. You point a gun at me, loaded or not you are breaking the law." and then you also said, "I am pretty confidant in my knowledge of my states legal statutes, and I don't have to put up with guys pointing rifles at me without recourse."

I'd like to know what you're talking about by these "states legal statutes" that will penalize someone who unintentionally points a gun at someone. Also please elaborate on how the person who accidently points a gun at you at a match is "breaking the law?"

I would agree that Idaho has a law that criminalizes unsafe gun handling that results in injury. However, that's not what you said and I'd like you to expound on your aforementioned statements regarding the law in Idaho.

I'm fully aware of Idaho's brandishing statute that is titled "Exhibition Or Use Of A Deadly Weapon." Please don't bring it up, it doesn't apply as it requires intent. I'm also aware of Idaho's statute titled "Aiming Firearms At Others" and it also doesn't apply as it also requires intent. So please elaborate and specifically tell us what statute or law found in Idaho is going to do what you're saying it will do? I'd sincerely like to know.

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What is the real problem with PCC. Honestly, it looks like the real problem is pride. There is apparent undertone of insecurity. That shooters who enjoy seeing their names on the top of the overall standings will now be playing second fiddle to deviant PCC shooters.

The other counter argument is we cannot afford the influx of possible new shooters, we are already at capacity. Give me a break! That is a very selfish,egotistical, and bluntly ignorant evaluation of the current status of the sport. Firstly PCC class would not change the number shooters allowed in a given match. Secondly, if and only if it was so popular, it would only drive the need for more local matches.

Lastly on the counter issue of safety. That is dogmatic stupidity. As if the introduction of these firearms will open a Pandora's box of safety violations. Violations that we will not be able to regulate.

Local matches have allowed the use of PCC for years. They are extremely fun and safe. USPSA is a perfect forum for them. The only issue is the classifiers and stages requiring a up range start. You the shooter have to be creative as to stay within the rules, but in lieu of official rules at present, it isn't unsolvable.

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So let me get this straight, you're saying that the people that don't agree with you are: Prideful, insecure, selfish, egotistical, bluntly ignorant, and dogmatically stupid.

Very "adult" of you. :closedeyes:

Agreed. I also find it odd he has been shooting PCC for years in Uspsa but doesn't know the difference between class and division.
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Shoot the match on Saturday as PISTOL only. Leave the walls, etc. up for Sunday's PCC match. Move some targets back, make them smaller, add some targets, etc. I support PCC and would like to shoot it as a separate match. (or shoot Pistol matches the first Sunday of the month and PCC the second Sunday, ... whatever works for your club or range)

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Shoot the match on Saturday as PISTOL only. Leave the walls, etc. up for Sunday's PCC match. Move some targets back, make them smaller, add some targets, etc. I support PCC and would like to shoot it as a separate match. (or shoot Pistol matches the first Sunday of the month and PCC the second Sunday, ... whatever works for your club or range)

And it has the added advantage that it does not require any changes to the rules, as USPSA already has a Rifle rulebook.

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Shoot the match on Saturday as PISTOL only. Leave the walls, etc. up for Sunday's PCC match. Move some targets back, make them smaller, add some targets, etc. I support PCC and would like to shoot it as a separate match. (or shoot Pistol matches the first Sunday of the month and PCC the second Sunday, ... whatever works for your club or range)

And it has the added advantage that it does not require any changes to the rules, as USPSA already has a Rifle rulebook.

One of the local ranges does that for their 3gun match and it works well. I agree it would be a good way to go for PCC as well.

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Shoot the match on Saturday as PISTOL only. Leave the walls, etc. up for Sunday's PCC match. Move some targets back, make them smaller, add some targets, etc. I support PCC and would like to shoot it as a separate match. (or shoot Pistol matches the first Sunday of the month and PCC the second Sunday, ... whatever works for your club or range)

And it has the added advantage that it does not require any changes to the rules, as USPSA already has a Rifle rulebook.
We change rules all the time Edited by BillD
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It really isn't difficult to transport a rifle without pointing it in a direction that you do not intend.

And yet there are so very many people who fail to do this.

They have the right to form a support/complaint group at the local Dairy Queen.

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Shoot the match on Saturday as PISTOL only. Leave the walls, etc. up for Sunday's PCC match. Move some targets back, make them smaller, add some targets, etc. I support PCC and would like to shoot it as a separate match. (or shoot Pistol matches the first Sunday of the month and PCC the second Sunday, ... whatever works for your club or range)

Match calendar is full around here.

Outside of the rare fifth Sunday there is a match scheduled every day of each weekend. Adding a PCC match would actually either fail, or pull from other matches (there is a gentleman's agreement not to step on each other matches).

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What is the real problem with PCC. Honestly, it looks like the real problem is pride. There is apparent undertone of insecurity. That shooters who enjoy seeing their names on the top of the overall standings will now be playing second fiddle to deviant PCC shooters.

The other counter argument is we cannot afford the influx of possible new shooters, we are already at capacity. Give me a break! That is a very selfish,egotistical, and bluntly ignorant evaluation of the current status of the sport. Firstly PCC class would not change the number shooters allowed in a given match. Secondly, if and only if it was so popular, it would only drive the need for more local matches.

Lastly on the counter issue of safety. That is dogmatic stupidity. As if the introduction of these firearms will open a Pandora's box of safety violations. Violations that we will not be able to regulate.

Local matches have allowed the use of PCC for years. They are extremely fun and safe. USPSA is a perfect forum for them. The only issue is the classifiers and stages requiring a up range start. You the shooter have to be creative as to stay within the rules, but in lieu of official rules at present, it isn't unsolvable.

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So let me get this straight, you're saying that the people that don't agree with you are: Prideful, insecure, selfish, egotistical, bluntly ignorant, and dogmatically stupid.

Very "adult" of you. :closedeyes:

Agreed. I also find it odd he has been shooting PCC for years in Uspsa but doesn't know the difference between class and division.
Big Sarge, what is your point? I did not state that I have been shooting PCC for years. On a challenge from a veteran shooter in the club, I have shot it, and absolutely loved it. Our local match has allowed shooters to shoot them.

To imply that no one within the sport would ever stoop so low as worry about their overall score, or base a decision solely on that. How many of you flaunt your classification on your profile here? Some would argue that is Petty and a display of insecurity.

The safety debate... As you mentioned USPSA already has rifle related rules. So it is Dogmatic(big word... might want to google it) to say carbines are unsafe. Or to suggest that USPSA can't regulate the "Division"(for you Big Sarge).

The over crowding issue. It is ridiculous to state we can't manage new shooters to the sport. All matches have a number of shooter they can accommodate. A PPC division would no more effect then they do now. If matches are getting overcrowded that is a good reflection of the sport. The issue becomes a supply and demand problem. We need more matches.

Hypothetically, to introduce the provisional division, what does it hurt? To the haters it is nothing more then a flash in a pan and goes the way of the dodo( like the old tactical division, IPSC days). If it is so popular that we need separate matches, isn't that again, good for the sport.

The major flaw with overcrowded argument is we need new shooters more then we need those who have been here since the sport started. They are the future of the sport. They bring new ideas and new blood to sport. They also bring money to the sport. If not we will follow the direction of PPC and now IDPA.

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Edited by Rangerdug
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Shoot the match on Saturday as PISTOL only. Leave the walls, etc. up for Sunday's PCC match. Move some targets back, make them smaller, add some targets, etc. I support PCC and would like to shoot it as a separate match. (or shoot Pistol matches the first Sunday of the month and PCC the second Sunday, ... whatever works for your club or range)

That is what we are doing for both Rifle and Shotgun matches.

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What is the real problem with PCC. Honestly, it looks like the real problem is pride. There is apparent undertone of insecurity. That shooters who enjoy seeing their names on the top of the overall standings will now be playing second fiddle to deviant PCC shooters.

The other counter argument is we cannot afford the influx of possible new shooters, we are already at capacity. Give me a break! That is a very selfish,egotistical, and bluntly ignorant evaluation of the current status of the sport. Firstly PCC class would not change the number shooters allowed in a given match. Secondly, if and only if it was so popular, it would only drive the need for more local matches.

Lastly on the counter issue of safety. That is dogmatic stupidity. As if the introduction of these firearms will open a Pandora's box of safety violations. Violations that we will not be able to regulate.

Local matches have allowed the use of PCC for years. They are extremely fun and safe. USPSA is a perfect forum for them. The only issue is the classifiers and stages requiring a up range start. You the shooter have to be creative as to stay within the rules, but in lieu of official rules at present, it isn't unsolvable.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So let me get this straight, you're saying that the people that don't agree with you are: Prideful, insecure, selfish, egotistical, bluntly ignorant, and dogmatically stupid.

Very "adult" of you. :closedeyes:

Agreed. I also find it odd he has been shooting PCC for years in Uspsa but doesn't know the difference between class and division.
Big Sarge, what is your point? I did not state that I have been shooting PCC for years. On a challenge from a veteran shooter in the club, I have shot it, and absolutely loved it. Our local match has allowed shooters to shoot them.

To imply that no one within the sport would ever stoop so low as worry about their overall score, or base a decision solely on that. How many of flaunt your classification on your profile here? Some would argue that is Petty and a display of insecurity.

The safety debate... As you mentioned USPSA already has rifle related rules. So it is Dogmatic(big word... might want to google it) to say carbines are unsafe. Or to suggest that USPSA can't regulate the "Division"(for you Big Sarge).

The over crowding issue. It is ridiculous to state we can't manage new shooters to the sport. All matches have a number of shooter they can accommodate. A PPC division would no more effect then they do now. If matches are getting overcrowded that is a good reflection of the sport. The issue becomes a supply and demand problem. We need more matches.

Hypothetically, to introduce the provisional division, what does it hurt? To the haters it is nothing more then a flash in a pan and goes the way of the dodo( like the old tactical division, IPSC days). If it is so popular that we need separate matches, isn't that again, good for the sport.

The major flaw with overcrowded argument is we need new shooters more then we need those who have been here since the sport started. They are the future of the sport. They bring new ideas and new blood to sport. They also bring money to the sport. If not we will follow the direction of PPC and now IDPA.

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I've already voiced my concern on the matter so I'm not going to keep repeating it. But I did want to comment on what you said.

The fact is that many clubs ARE at capacity in our area, Doug. Your match at WP is always full within minutes of online registration opening and I know how much members of the club bitch that they can't get in.

CGC and Bristlecone both fill up and turn away shooters also.

I don't think you shoot Aurora that much but these matches are brutal with squad size when the weather is good.

I'm not saying it's like this everywhere in the country but it's an issue in our area.

Edited by d_striker
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What is the real problem with PCC. Honestly, it looks like the real problem is pride. There is apparent undertone of insecurity. That shooters who enjoy seeing their names on the top of the overall standings will now be playing second fiddle to deviant PCC shooters.

The other counter argument is we cannot afford the influx of possible new shooters, we are already at capacity. Give me a break! That is a very selfish,egotistical, and bluntly ignorant evaluation of the current status of the sport. Firstly PCC class would not change the number shooters allowed in a given match. Secondly, if and only if it was so popular, it would only drive the need for more local matches.

Lastly on the counter issue of safety. That is dogmatic stupidity. As if the introduction of these firearms will open a Pandora's box of safety violations. Violations that we will not be able to regulate.

Local matches have allowed the use of PCC for years. They are extremely fun and safe. USPSA is a perfect forum for them. The only issue is the classifiers and stages requiring a up range start. You the shooter have to be creative as to stay within the rules, but in lieu of official rules at present, it isn't unsolvable.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So let me get this straight, you're saying that the people that don't agree with you are: Prideful, insecure, selfish, egotistical, bluntly ignorant, and dogmatically stupid.

Very "adult" of you. :closedeyes:

Agreed. I also find it odd he has been shooting PCC for years in Uspsa but doesn't know the difference between class and division.
Big Sarge, what is your point? I did not state that I have been shooting PCC for years. On a challenge from a veteran shooter in the club, I have shot it, and absolutely loved it. Our local match has allowed shooters to shoot them.

To imply that no one within the sport would ever stoop so low as worry about their overall score, or base a decision solely on that. How many of flaunt your classification on your profile here? Some would argue that is Petty and a display of insecurity.

The safety debate... As you mentioned USPSA already has rifle related rules. So it is Dogmatic(big word... might want to google it) to say carbines are unsafe. Or to suggest that USPSA can't regulate the "Division"(for you Big Sarge).

The over crowding issue. It is ridiculous to state we can't manage new shooters to the sport. All matches have a number of shooter they can accommodate. A PPC division would no more effect then they do now. If matches are getting overcrowded that is a good reflection of the sport. The issue becomes a supply and demand problem. We need more matches.

Hypothetically, to introduce the provisional division, what does it hurt? To the haters it is nothing more then a flash in a pan and goes the way of the dodo( like the old tactical division, IPSC days). If it is so popular that we need separate matches, isn't that again, good for the sport.

The major flaw with overcrowded argument is we need new shooters more then we need those who have been here since the sport started. They are the future of the sport. They bring new ideas and new blood to sport. They also bring money to the sport. If not we will follow the direction of PPC and now IDPA.

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I've already voiced my concern on the matter so I'm not going to keep repeating it. But I did want to comment on what you said.

The fact is that many clubs ARE at capacity in our area, Doug. Your match at WP is always full within minutes of online registration opening and I know how much members of the club bitch that they can't get in.

CGC and Bristlecone both fill up and turn away shooters also.

I don't think you shoot Aurora that much but these matches are brutal with squad size when the weather is good.

I'm not saying it's like this everywhere in the country but it's an issue in our area.

How will the introduction of PCC negatively change any of that. Shooters bring a gun and shoot with them. Open hasn't ruined the sport. People still shoot other divisions. PPC are no different.

The issue at WP was a result of the "Goldilocks effect" certain individuals were crying about the matches going too late. Then others crying they weren't being catered too enough. Others would complain they couldn't sign up the day of the match, even though they had two weeks to. The staff repeatedly warned people to watch what they were wishing for, in the end they ruined it for everyone. It still doesn't change the fact we need more matches. You being a member of WP you want more matches, then you need to ask for more matches. Be the squeaky gate. The owner will feel pressured to act.

These gentlemen agreements between matches, are silly for the simple fact either your match offers good competition or it doesn't. If you can't get into one go to the other or others.

That should be the argument, not the introduction of PCCs. Love you Dom

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Edited by Rangerdug
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How will the introduction of PCC negatively change any of that. Shooters bring a gun and shoot with them. Open hasn't ruined the sport. People still shoot other divisions. PPC are no different.

The issue at WP was a result of the "Goldilocks effect" certain individuals were crying about the matches going too late. Then others crying they weren't being catered too enough. Others would complain they couldn't sign up the day of the match, even though they had two weeks to. The staff repeatedly warned people to watch what they were wishing for, in the end they ruined it for everyone. It still doesn't change the fact we need more matches. You being a member of WP you want more matches, then you need to ask for more matches. Be the squeaky gate. The owner will feel pressured to act.

These gentlemen agreements between matches, are silly for the simple fact either your match offers good competition or it doesn't. If you can't get into one go to the other or others.

That should be the argument, not the introduction of PCCs. Love you Dom

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[sigh] I thought I was out and you're sucking me back in.

I've repeatedly asked for more matches and even pin shoots. I've been told the matches lose money and that we're lucky that we even have one match per month at WP. I totally understand what you're saying about people ruining it at WP but it's the demand that caused people to bitch. Since you're part of the match staff, I'm guessing you don't have to sign up for the match online like the rest of us peons. The match typically gets created by Hoser the Thursday before the match and it fills up in an hour or two. I've never bitched about sign up. It is what it is and if I want to shoot the match, I make it a priority to sign up. But the fact that people are getting turned away means USPSA is losing out on activity fees. The fact that people are getting turned away from any match shows that there needs to be more clubs and matches. There are some days where I don't even bother going to the Aurora match because I know it's going to be a 9+ hour day with drive time. And I know others do to. These are precious activity fees that USPSA is losing out on.

Not to continue repeating myself, but I simply think USPSA leadership is putting the cart before the horse with regards to growth strategy.

I'm not saying I'm right on the matter. All I'm saying is that PCC is being sold under the premise of growing membership/participation, and in turn collecting more activity fees. If this is true and all the PCC'ers start showing up in droves like the Pres says, this does in fact further increase the demand on matches, many of which are already at capacity.

Love you too. Hope to see you tomorrow.

Edited by d_striker
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... I've repeatedly asked for more matches and even pin shoots. I've been told the matches lose money and that we're lucky that we even have one match per month ...

As someone else mentioned, this is a LOCAL problem and could be solved locally. Have you considered the following options:

1) Suggest a significant match fee increase so that the existing matches no longer lose money? If the matches are selling out quickly and not MAKING money, someone is doing something very wrong.

2) Offer to help set up a match yourself (if you do not already do so)?

If there is a range near you, and it is not being used every weekend, then you are much luckier than I am. I MD at least one match each month, and whenever I can snatch an open weekend slot, I grab it eagerly to run a long-gun match. Unfortunately, those slots are few and far between.

Edited by StealthyBlagga
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I don't know how I can spell it out more simply than I already have.

If I understand correctly, you want to keep competition for slots in oversubscribed local matches to a pistol-only minimum. You hope to accomplish this by keeping the MD (and you are not the MD) from having the option to offer PCC side-by-side with other USPSA divisions.

The nearby range you prefer doesn't want to offer additional matches for what sounds like economic reasons.

Am I missing something?

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I don't know how I can spell it out more simply than I already have.

If I understand correctly, you want to keep competition for slots in oversubscribed local matches to a pistol-only minimum. You hope to accomplish this by keeping the MD (and you are not the MD) from having the option to offer PCC side-by-side with other USPSA divisions.

The nearby range you prefer doesn't want to offer additional matches for what sounds like economic reasons.

Am I missing something?

Yup. You're missing a lot.

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