Pistol Caliber Carbine. (PCC)

[CHA-LEE]

You guys have fun with the adoption rate of this when MD's like me tell USPSA to pound sand on deploy PPC because we already have a hard enough time supporting what is currently in the rule books.

[MarkCO]

Do we really want to neuter the DVC balance in an effort to "Grow the sport"? Personally I would say no and it undermines the fundamental principles of the sport. Accuracy, POWER, and speed are required to be a true balance.

I guess you think someone already did. Production, CO, SS minor, have you written your AD to get these neutered divisions out of USPSA?

Sounds like you are for PCC. I am more accurate with higher PF bullets and more speed than my neutered 9mm. So PCC makes me better and closer to your ideal of DVC. Thanks for the support, that is a great argument for PCC.

[OPENB]

Weak ammo? Ever heard of the most popular division in USPSA? A little thing called production, where factory 9mm is way over-powered? That has to be the most ludicrous argument yet.

[ctay]

Thanks StealthyBlagga. I considered adding your response from the other thread but didn't want to put words in your mouth in event wanted to change something.

[gng4life]

Do we really want to neuter the DVC balance in an effort to "Grow the sport"? Personally I would say no and it undermines the fundamental principles of the sport. Accuracy, POWER, and speed are required to be a true balance.

I guess you think someone already did. Production, CO, SS minor, have you written your AD to get these neutered divisions out of USPSA?

Sounds like you are for PCC. I am more accurate with higher PF bullets and more speed than my neutered 9mm. So PCC makes me better and closer to your ideal of DVC. Thanks for the support, that is a great argument for PCC.

You forgot 8 shot revolver too [emoji2]

The DVC argument doesn't hold water as it is really meant to keep minor with minor and major with major rewarding the major PF more points. PCC would compete at equal PF level so let's move on with more important senseless arguing [emoji12]

Go Panthers!

Sent from the range

[CHA-LEE]

Hhhhmmmmm....... So now a shouldered 9mm carbine with three points of contact to manage the recoil is the same "Power Control Level" as a minor Power Factor Production handgun? If so I can't even quantify the level of fail boat that thinking is.

[StealthyBlagga]

You guys have fun with the adoption rate of this when MD's like me tell USPSA to pound sand on deploy PPC because we already have a hard enough time supporting what is currently in the rule books.

That is absolutely fine - it is your match and your privilege to choose which divisions you want to recognize. I am sure you will not be the only one, but I am equally sure lots of other MDs will adopt PCC division (eagerly or at the request of their customers). In the end, the goal of a provisional division is to test the market's appetite for new things. I am confident PCC will be very popular in my neck of the woods, and in many other parts of the nation.

Edited February 3, 2016 by StealthyBlagga

[MarkCO]

Hhhhmmmmm....... So now a shouldered 9mm carbine with three points of contact to manage the recoil is the same "Power Control Level" as a minor Power Factor Production handgun? If so I can't even quantify the level of fail boat that thinking is.

That is pretty good. Your assertion is soundly thumped, so you make up a new term. Where is that in the rulebook, glossary?

[CHA-LEE]

Look at principle # 3 for the answer to that.

[RangerTrace]

At some point, this has to be closed as no one can possibly read the whole thread. It seems to be the never ending thread.....

[CHA-LEE]

Or we can throw the Fundamental Principles of USPSA to the wayside and ram rod the PPC division into existence because of SHINY NEW TOY TO SHOOT!!!

[MarkCO]

Look at principle # 3 for the answer to that.

3. Firearm types are not separated within their respective divisions, all compete together without handicap. This does not apply to the power of the firearms as power is an element to be recognized and rewarded.

I still can not find "Power Control Level". Just talks about "firearms" and recognizing power. I have loads that are well over minor and over major. The sport has the work "practical" in it. Thumb rests and comps and dots and...are all these developments that aid a shooter in speed and accuracy with a power level. But toss a stock on it and suddenly, what all "practical" firearms users have known for hundreds of years is neutering a sport. Come on Charlie. Admittedly there are some arguments against PCC in handgun matches, but "neutered" and tossing the principles of USPSA to the side...that argument has not a shred of truth to it.

[CHA-LEE]

So its NOT harder to control the "power level" produced by a Major PF round verses a Minor PF? When using the same "Power Level" ammo in both Pistol & Rifle is its NOT easier to manage the recoil of a firearm if you have three points of contact (Rifle) on it verses one (Pistol)?

[MarkCO]

Sure it is. So are all those devices on your open gun. Same purpose, same effect and the rulebook and principles never address "power factor per control device" just power factor.

[rowdyb]

Remind me never to shoot a match in Colorado....

[MarkCO]

Remind me never to shoot a match in Colorado....

Actually, some of the best matches you will shoot. Charlie and I are friends and our disagreement won't change that. Heck, he is one of very few people I have work with my boys on shooting. Opinions on what USPSA should or should not be, in almost all cases are not going to affect match quality.

Regardless, I think Trace made a good point. Over and out until there is a ruleset or appendix to look at.

[zhunter]

This thread is headed for the 70+ page status of the Production Optics thread

[Gooldylocks]

As an aside, it bothers the grammar Nazi in me when people write "PPC" instead of "PCC".

"PPC" is Precision Pistol Competition, previously known as Police Pistol Combat. "PCC" stands for Pistol Caliber Carbine.

Carry on.

[Beastly]

If I put a 40 Minor pistol load in my 16" Sub2000 PCC it magically chronographs at 40 Major.

Recoil from this blowback gun is considerably more than you would imagine.

Sure I can download it further to minor velocities - just like ever division. CHA-Lee: Should there be PCC/Minor AND PCC/Major scoring? It would be a ot easier to hit 9Major with a PCC than with an open gun.

[d_striker]

Remind me never to shoot a match in Colorado....

Actually, some of the best matches you will shoot. Charlie and I are friends and our disagreement won't change that. Heck, he is one of very few people I have work with my boys on shooting. Opinions on what USPSA should or should not be, in almost all cases are not going to affect match quality.

Regardless, I think Trace made a good point. Over and out until there is a ruleset or appendix to look at.

Yup. Some people take all this a little too seriously. I'm not sure why this place makes people think that if you disagree with someone, you're automatically enemies.

Good thing some of us know how to put our big boy pants on.

[Alaskapopo]

You guys have fun with the adoption rate of this when MD's like me tell USPSA to pound sand on deploy PPC because we already have a hard enough time supporting what is currently in the rule books.

If they allow MD's to allow or not allow the division then you would be happy and I would too since I know MD's in my area are wanting to attract more shooters not turn them away. We don't have the numbers of shooters you do apparently.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Alaskapopo

[Alaskapopo]

Hhhhmmmmm....... So now a shouldered 9mm carbine with three points of contact to manage the recoil is the same "Power Control Level" as a minor Power Factor Production handgun? If so I can't even quantify the level of fail boat that thinking is.

They are shooting against other PCC shooters not other divisons so why care. Also a 9mm PCC recoils more than a 5.56 3 gun rifle.

Pat

[mosher]

We run a monthly USPSA match with 40+ shooters. Over the last year, we started an occasional CQB rifle outlaw match on a separate weekend where we run rifles on USPSA pistol stages. I thought it would be neat and fun. We already have 3gun at our club, but this was going to be rifles on pistol stages.

It is fun, but it is also different. It was too easy. Hard to describe, but it just isn't the same. First match was a huge success, it was something different. The month after the first one I was convinced it was a huge hit, but as the initial effect wore off, I started to notice the reality of it. By the second match we realized it was just too easy for anyone, and we started altering the stages to make them harder, straying from the original concept of using USPSA handgun stages.

In order to make the match challenging, we got to the point where stages don't even resemble USPSA handgun stages, and would be borderline stupid to even attempt with a handgun. We also had to trash a lot of USPA type starts as mentioned, uprange, etc, and try to avoid doors and holding onto objects like ropes, etc.

Is it possible to shoehorn it into handgun matches as a division? Sure. Anything can be done. With a few rule tweaks I could even let the fudd's at our range shoot our match with their trap guns, or more realistically, I could open the door to a stream of new junior shooters by allowing 22lr pistols and low ready starts.

Is it the best way to go about it? I don't think so.

As Brian identified, at many matches in many areas, we have a capacity problem already.

As those championing PCC have identified, it is fun and could grow the sport.

Instead of bickering about how to shoehorn it in where it may not best fit, look instead to solve both problems.

If 1/3rd of USPSA clubs added another separate monthly PCC match, or even a quarterly match where it was offered, you would not only get those few new PCC shooters that people insist will come, but you would get a bunch that would otherwise shoot handgun. I'd even recommend trying it every 5th Saturday or sunday, which is only occasionally and likely doesn't conflict with anything existing on your range schedule. If you just can't find a home for it, start it after a 30 minute break after your regular pistol match ends. You effectively double your matches, double your capacity, and double your attendance.

It's what we did, except we allow any rifle, and initially tried to use pistol type stages, but have since stretched them out a bit to create a challenge, but still run them on our 35 yard or less pistol bays.

We get 40-50 shooters, some of them the same pistol shooters in our USPSA match, a lot of them aren't. It's a nice bump to the club finances because its an extra gate, and we don't pay an activity fee as of now with it being outlaw.

You address the capacity issue by instantly adding more matches, and you open the door to PCC competitors as desired.

Hmmm....now that I think about it we might start a 5th Saturday, 22LR pistol only, low ready start outlaw match on USPSA style stages geared towards getting newer shooters like juniors out in a less intimidating, gear friendly environment.

[Bkreutz]

We run a monthly USPSA match with 40+ shooters. Over the last year, we started an occasional CQB rifle outlaw match on a separate weekend where we run rifles on USPSA pistol stages. I thought it would be neat and fun. We already have 3gun at our club, but this was going to be rifles on pistol stages.

It is fun, but it is also different. It was too easy. Hard to describe, but it just isn't the same. First match was a huge success, it was something different. The month after the first one I was convinced it was a huge hit, but as the initial effect wore off, I started to notice the reality of it. By the second match we realized it was just too easy for anyone, and we started altering the stages to make them harder, straying from the original concept of using USPSA handgun stages.

In order to make the match challenging, we got to the point where stages don't even resemble USPSA handgun stages, and would be borderline stupid to even attempt with a handgun. We also had to trash a lot of USPA type starts as mentioned, uprange, etc, and try to avoid doors and holding onto objects like ropes, etc.

Is it possible to shoehorn it into handgun matches as a division? Sure. Anything can be done. With a few rule tweaks I could even let the fudd's at our range shoot our match with their trap guns, or more realistically, I could open the door to a stream of new junior shooters by allowing 22lr pistols and low ready starts.

Is it the best way to go about it? I don't think so.

As Brian identified, at many matches in many areas, we have a capacity problem already.

As those championing PCC have identified, it is fun and could grow the sport.

Instead of bickering about how to shoehorn it in where it may not best fit, look instead to solve both problems.

If 1/3rd of USPSA clubs added another separate monthly PCC match, or even a quarterly match where it was offered, you would not only get those few new PCC shooters that people insist will come, but you would get a bunch that would otherwise shoot handgun. I'd even recommend trying it every 5th Saturday or sunday, which is only occasionally and likely doesn't conflict with anything existing on your range schedule. If you just can't find a home for it, start it after a 30 minute break after your regular pistol match ends. You effectively double your matches, double your capacity, and double your attendance.

It's what we did, except we allow any rifle, and initially tried to use pistol type stages, but have since stretched them out a bit to create a challenge, but still run them on our 35 yard or less pistol bays.

We get 40-50 shooters, some of them the same pistol shooters in our USPSA match, a lot of them aren't. It's a nice bump to the club finances because its an extra gate, and we don't pay an activity fee as of now with it being outlaw.

You address the capacity issue by instantly adding more matches, and you open the door to PCC competitors as desired.

Hmmm....now that I think about it we might start a 5th Saturday, 22LR pistol only, low ready start outlaw match on USPSA style stages geared towards getting newer shooters like juniors out in a less intimidating, gear friendly environment.

I think this is a good example of what could happen, unfortunately I get the impression that the question of PCC has already been decided. I know people swear that it's not but for a potential provisional division, there seems to have already been a number of hard and fast decisions that have been made. I don't have any "pull" so when the inevitable happens, I'll have to decide what to do at that point. (I've still got a vest around here somewhere )

[Racinready300ex]

mosher,

that seems reasonable to me. I don't see it going that way though. I have a feeling it has already been decided. Perhaps you should forward your experience on to the BOD.