Pistol Caliber Carbine. (PCC)

[Beastly]

How about we try PCC's in steel challenge. They already have a RF rifle division. My local match director said I need to load light 9mm out of my 14.5" barrel PCC so I don't damage his steel. Really? I didn't push the mater. It would be allot of fun though.

Only speed matters. Chrono your 14.5" PCC and compare to Open/Major velocity with a 124 grain or 115 grain bullet.

165000 / 124 gr = 1330 fps

165000 / 115 gr = 1435 fps

125,000 / 124 gr = 1008 fps

125,000 / 115 gr = 1087 fps

145,000 / 124 gr = 1169 fps - probably higher end of box ammo velocity

Stick a 9 minor load in a 16" PCC and I'd be surprised if you could get another 200 fps without custom loading. This is well within the velocity of a 9Major load.

-30 Carbine, has almost the same ballistic profile as a .357 Mag. So should also be allowed.

No it does not. The .357Mag and .30 Carbine have very different terminal ballistics on steel.

I reload 30 Carbine. Book loads and presumably box ammo goes to 2000+ fps. I Have polymer coated 115 gr bullets running properly at 1700 fps. From my notes people have gotten it running as slow as 1500 fps but at some point it becomes unreliable. Relatively few people reload 30 Carbine and it is a bit of a PITA with case trimming and all so I think 2000 fps needs to be the assumed velocity.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Beastly

[Beastly]

Ultimo, have you ever been muzzled at a pistol match? I have. Cops weren't called, no one was prosecuted, and no one resorted to physical violence, as I believe you are intimating with your last couple posts. If so, which did you do, call the cops or hand out "consequences"?

This is twice in two days. We don't need people who repeatedly intimate violence at our matches. Nor on Benos.

[Bkreutz]

I found it interesting that a potential new division, in which all the options were still in the discussion stage, already had eliminated a caliber. Sure sounds like a lot of things are already decided but not announced.

I discussed this with Troy when I was putting the proposal together for PCC for steel challenge and in then end I requested 9mm/.40S&W/10MM & .45 ACP primarily because I had no idea that 30 carbine was considered a pistol caliber. Perhaps they just need some educating?

I understand that .30 Carbine isn't a pistol round (even though Ruger has a revolver in that caliber). I was using it as an example of how a lot of decisions have apparently been made about a potential provisional division in USPSA. A lot of people on various forums are talking like it's a done deal.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

Ultimo, have you ever been muzzled at a pistol match? I have. Cops weren't called, no one was prosecuted, and no one resorted to physical violence, as I believe you are intimating with your last couple posts. If so, which did you do, call the cops or hand out "consequences"?

Yes I have. And there were consequences. The offending competitor was disqualified from the match. As the handgun rules addressed the issue.

What I'm saying is if you win and get a "dead stick" "flag your rifle and do as you like rule" I am not gonna stand for it. I am pretty confidant in my knowledge of my states legal statutes, and I don't have to put up with guys pointing rifles at me without recourse. Assuming you get your way and get USPSA to look the other way in the name of shooting AR's at pistol matches.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Ultimo-Hombre

[PPGMD]

-30 Carbine, has almost the same ballistic profile as a .357 Mag. So should also be allowed.

Mike Foley said No to 30 Carbine on the USPSA forum.

If you are bagging it, you bag it immediately after the unload and show clear. It is no different than how most handle rimfire carbines in steel challenge. You either rack it on your cart, or you bag it.

Only problem with that idea is that you typically end the stage at a position other than where you started.

Then you clear it, put the flag in it, and walk back to the start of the stage to bag it.

See my previous post.

"Flag" means nothing to me.

Nor does a chamber flag exist anywhere in my states criminal statutes. You point a gun at someone, loaded or not "chamber flag" or not you just broke the law. Period.

You point it at me, "flag" or not you are gonna have consequences.

It's a bummer this debate has come to this, but oh well. Im not going anywhere and I'm not gonna let anyone put me at risk for a game. Want to add a division, perhaps you should have had a little respect. Can jam it, and see what you get.

There must be dozens of arrests daily at the public shooting ranges and gun shops in Idaho.

[PPGMD]

Ultimo, have you ever been muzzled at a pistol match? I have. Cops weren't called, no one was prosecuted, and no one resorted to physical violence, as I believe you are intimating with your last couple posts. If so, which did you do, call the cops or hand out "consequences"?

Yes I have. And there were consequences. The offending competitor was disqualified from the match. As the handgun rules addressed the issue.

What I'm saying is if you win and get a "dead stick" "flag your rifle and do as you like rule" I am not gonna stand for it. I am pretty confidant in my knowledge of my states legal statutes, and I don't have to put up with guys pointing rifles at me without recourse. Assuming you get your way and get USPSA to look the other way in the name of shooting AR's at pistol matches.

As far as handing out consequences, yes I will, totally within the rule of law. Now if you want to sign a waiver and find a quiet place to sort it out, I'm super good with that too. But let's be real, that don't happen anymore.

I dare you to call the police on someone that muzzled you are a match. But please make sure to video it so we can all see the cop laugh at you.

[StealthyBlagga]

... the shooter unbags their PCC in the nearest safety area (yes, additional safety areas may be needed - not difficult), ...

I shoot at two clubs that actually only have one safety area. Way too far away to walk repeatedly not to mention you would be walking among the rest of the shooters with an uncased rifle.

The clubs I shoot at are not "USPSA clubs" . They are host clubs so we can't just make every picnic table a safety area. God only knows how the other members would react to rifles being carried around uncased.

Rule 2.4 covers safety areas adequately. A safety area is not difficult to establish - just mark off an area with a safe direction to point guns and declare it a safety area - at a Level 1 it does not even need to include a table. Where there is a will, there is a way. If an MD cannot provide safety areas convenient to each stage, then they can certainly elect not to offer PCC division. Availability of safety areas at some ranges is not a very strong reason to deny the rest of the USPSA world the opportunity to enjoy PCC.

At just about any long gun event of any type, long guns are routinely carried uncased. Each match has its own safety protocols and acceptable conduct rules. I am sure Troy can come up with something that is workable.

Edited February 1, 2016 by StealthyBlagga

[Ultimo-Hombre]

-30 Carbine, has almost the same ballistic profile as a .357 Mag. So should also be allowed.

Mike Foley said No to 30 Carbine on the USPSA forum.

If you are bagging it, you bag it immediately after the unload and show clear. It is no different than how most handle rimfire carbines in steel challenge. You either rack it on your cart, or you bag it.

Only problem with that idea is that you typically end the stage at a position other than where you started.

Then you clear it, put the flag in it, and walk back to the start of the stage to bag it.

See my previous post.

"Flag" means nothing to me.

Nor does a chamber flag exist anywhere in my states criminal statutes. You point a gun at someone, loaded or not "chamber flag" or not you just broke the law. Period.

You point it at me, "flag" or not you are gonna have consequences.

It's a bummer this debate has come to this, but oh well. Im not going anywhere and I'm not gonna let anyone put me at risk for a game. Want to add a division, perhaps you should have had a little respect. Can jam it, and see what you get.

There must be dozens of arrests daily at the public shooting ranges and gun shops in Idaho.

Ugh. I just don't want guys pointing their rifles at me. Edited February 1, 2016 by Ultimo-Hombre

[Ultimo-Hombre]

Ultimo, have you ever been muzzled at a pistol match? I have. Cops weren't called, no one was prosecuted, and no one resorted to physical violence, as I believe you are intimating with your last couple posts. If so, which did you do, call the cops or hand out "consequences"?

Yes I have. And there were consequences. The offending competitor was disqualified from the match. As the handgun rules addressed the issue.

What I'm saying is if you win and get a "dead stick" "flag your rifle and do as you like rule" I am not gonna stand for it. I am pretty confidant in my knowledge of my states legal statutes, and I don't have to put up with guys pointing rifles at me without recourse. Assuming you get your way and get USPSA to look the other way in the name of shooting AR's at pistol matches.

As far as handing out consequences, yes I will, totally within the rule of law. Now if you want to sign a waiver and find a quiet place to sort it out, I'm super good with that too. But let's be real, that don't happen anymore.

I dare you to call the police on someone that muzzled you are a match. But please make sure to video it so we can all see the cop laugh at you.

Again... I just don't want rifles pointed at me.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Ultimo-Hombre

[2MoreChains]

-30 Carbine, has almost the same ballistic profile as a .357 Mag. So should also be allowed.

Mike Foley said No to 30 Carbine on the USPSA forum.

If you are bagging it, you bag it immediately after the unload and show clear. It is no different than how most handle rimfire carbines in steel challenge. You either rack it on your cart, or you bag it.

Only problem with that idea is that you typically end the stage at a position other than where you started.

Then you clear it, put the flag in it, and walk back to the start of the stage to bag it.

See my previous post.

"Flag" means nothing to me.

Nor does a chamber flag exist anywhere in my states criminal statutes. You point a gun at someone, loaded or not "chamber flag" or not you just broke the law. Period.

You point it at me, "flag" or not you are gonna have consequences.

It's a bummer this debate has come to this, but oh well. Im not going anywhere and I'm not gonna let anyone put me at risk for a game. Want to add a division, perhaps you should have had a little respect. Can jam it, and see what you get.

There must be dozens of arrests daily at the public shooting ranges and gun shops in Idaho.

Only on Mondays...and it's usually because there was only one box of .22LR left on the shelf.

[DocMedic]

Last time I check this discussion and this forum for that matter is for Civil discussions, So lets keep this Civil and not make personal attack against anyone or any direct person. Making up Scenarios about how you would attack someone because of how something would happen. (Yes it's attack whether verbal or physical) is Childish !

So lets get back on topic and ignore the ignorant if we must, please.

Edited February 1, 2016 by DocMedic

[2MoreChains]

Ultimo, have you ever been muzzled at a pistol match? I have. Cops weren't called, no one was prosecuted, and no one resorted to physical violence, as I believe you are intimating with your last couple posts. If so, which did you do, call the cops or hand out "consequences"?

Yes I have. And there were consequences. The offending competitor was disqualified from the match. As the handgun rules addressed the issue.

What I'm saying is if you win and get a "dead stick" "flag your rifle and do as you like rule" I am not gonna stand for it. I am pretty confidant in my knowledge of my states legal statutes, and I don't have to put up with guys pointing rifles at me without recourse. Assuming you get your way and get USPSA to look the other way in the name of shooting AR's at pistol matches.

As far as handing out consequences, yes I will, totally within the rule of law. Now if you want to sign a waiver and find a quiet place to sort it out, I'm super good with that too. But let's be real, that don't happen anymore.

Earlier when I suggested chamber flags I guess I should have clarified that even tho the gun is flagged people still need to be mindful and responsible for the direction they point their muzzle. The way I envision it is once the chamber flag is inserted the shooter still has to keep it pointed up or down until it's cased/bagged/secured on their kart. Come out to Parma sometime for their monthly 3-gun matches. Guns are carried uncased to the pre-load or staging tables all the time and nobody that I've seen ever gets "muzzled".

[OPENB]

You should probably wear your body armor, what with all the PCC shooters pointing at you and rounds going off and such. And we need to wear head gear and mouth pieces for your right hook. Nice. Please take a deep breath.

If you get muzzled with any gun, what will happen is what always has happened. He will get DQ'd, you will be pissed, life will go on, assuming you don't get shot. What kind of gun it is matters not in the least.

[ac4wordplay]

If you are bagging it, you bag it immediately after the unload and show clear. It is no different than how most handle rimfire carbines in steel challenge. You either rack it on your cart, or you bag it.

If you finish 25 yards down range then the bag needs to be brought to you or you have to be brought back to the start location. If you don't have a buddy willing to carry it for you then it's back to the start location. I won't bother an RO to carry it nor would I carry it as an RO for anybody else

This has never seemed like an issue to me. Un-bag the gun at MR, bag it at IC, HD, H. I've been participating in practical matches with long guns for more than 10 years. When I RO (which is most of the time), I'm almost always happy to carry a competitor's long gun bag (most seem to have a shoulder strap - that makes it particularly easy). When the stage (or certain other issues) prevents me from carrying the bag, there's been no difficulty getting the scorekeeper, or another competitor, to carry the bag to the competitor at his/her finish position, and arrive in time for IC, HD, H. We do the same thing for lots of people who shoot an Open handgun. There's no noticeable time issue - this doesn't make the match drag on or take any longer.

[technetium-99m]

Good grief.

Rifle safety rules have been established for many disciplines without issue. Safety concerns can be addressed without issue.

[Onepocket]

Hombre chill out dude. It gonna become a division, simple as that. One thing I can say about USPSA as an organization it is the safest that I've shot with. They will make it work, you might call your Doc in the morning and get him to adjust you medication. I can't believe you threatened multiple people on here, that's just stupid.

[DocMedic]

So to get back on topic, we pretty much ruled out .30 Carbine, to be honest I wasn't really 100% sure about it myself but the few local match that ran a PCC side-match allowed 30 carbine to shoot, but those matches if I remember were paper only.

Also about the off-hand/strong-hand shooting, I do see a point where shooting one-handed and shouldered might be a physical challenge to some specially those of junior ages. So we as a alternative would be that strong-side would be normal shooting, and weak/offhand-side would be weak hand @weak shoulder.

Gun Handling before the L&MR and after and the ULSC, is honestly a moot point, the rules already exist in USPSA multigun rules, yes thats not the Handgun Rule book but can easily be ported over with no issues.

So lets discuss magazine round limits. Should this be something that needs to be looked at? The maximum number of rounds a stage in USPSA can only be 32 rounds. I would dare to say that the magazine limit should also mimic that so that you can only have 32 rounds loaded per magazine. This would still cause concern for reload if the competitor misses while allow a more accurate shooter not to pause if he does not miss. With that being said I would still run my Dawson extension +10 pad on my Sig Mags. I believe the 3 popular brands of PCC all have the ability to get to 30 rounds without pads, (33 round Glock mags, CZ Scorpion +5pads, and Sig MPX +10 Pads from DP.) And i'm not 100% sure but also thought the 9mm COLT mags were already 32 round sticks.

What do you all think?

Edited February 1, 2016 by DocMedic

[ZackJones]

I like load to magazine capacity, regardless of capacity.

[Onepocket]

Zack what kind of special magazines do you have and where can I get some.

[MarkCO]

I don't care what they do about mag capacity. Maybe 140mm max at start, reload to what ever you want.

[Onepocket]

I just don't want to spend a bunch of money on crazy expensive magazine extensions to make it the right length.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

Hombre chill out dude. It gonna become a division, simple as that. One thing I can say about USPSA as an organization it is the safest that I've shot with. They will make it work, you might call your Doc in the morning and get him to adjust you medication. I can't believe you threatened multiple people on here, that's just stupid.

I'm actually not on any medication, but thanks for taking a personal swipe at me! I havnt threatened anyone, I've just said I'm not gonna let weak rules compromise my well being.

Weak dude,,, weak.

[teros135]

I must have missed something in this 24-page, 597 post thread (I think War and Peace is shorter, but less dramatic). Is it a foregone conclusion that PCC is going be a USPSA Pistol Division? When is it going to begin?

Edited February 1, 2016 by teros135

[Onepocket]

No you threatened people. Crazy.

[PKT1106]

I would like to see it stick to the main 3 calibers for now, 9mm, 40s&w, and 45ACP and whatever capacity comes with those. 9mm Glock mags go 33rds. I have a couple of Korean 31rd Glock 40s&w mags that run well. Most PCCs are 9mm anyway.

One of the main scoring issues I see is if its going to have major/minor or all the same PF floor.