ericm Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Some quibbles: 1) The 5 in max pistol barrel rule is from a time before the long slide Glock which is issued by many a SWAT team. I think the rule should be modified to allow for longer barreled pistols. 2) Why oh why require buckshot on steel knock down targets? I'm ok with buckshot on paper or even buckshot steel plates but why make the competitors knock down pepper poppers etc at 3-4X the cost of birdshot. Can't wait to attend though. Some milk & sugar for your quibbles: 1) If a long slide Glock is your duty pistol, either LE or MIL, and you use the duty rig option, and can provide some credential stating this is the case, petition us and we'll think about it. 2) Buckshot is currently running $100 - $110 per 250 round case on gunbot.net, about the same as we used to buy it for back in the day (give or take $20 / cs). If you are LE or MIL using a long slide Glock, you are probably using free or reduced cost duty ammo at the match anyway, so even more savings ericm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 While I was lacing my underwear, sipping my chamomile tea, watching Downtown Abbey and knitting a sweater, I was thinking "what is the purpose of requiring buckshot on a target that can be knocked down with birdshot?" Oh Robert K. Brown said it should be so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 And I love the "Be A Man Among Men" Rhodesian Army recruiting motif on the webpage. Talk about trigger warnings and safe spaces - that's as un-PC as it gets! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Heck yeah! Why use birdshot when a 22lr would probably knock down the steel. Lets make this a rimfire match. That would go well with the "motif". I can see it now, Ruger Rimfire tactical 3-gun and quilting bee. Chamomile Tea???.....I like mine with a twist of Lemon in my Hello Kitty mug with a Graham Cracker or two, but I would never do anything like knit while enjoying it because it is my special me time Remember, it is supposed to be a "tactical" match. Not many Police Departments, nor the Military issue birdshot for use in a social shotgun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 (edited) I am tempted to put together an iron sight rifle just for this match. Last time I ran irons on my rifle I used a globe front sight and A2-style rear. Can I assume "battleworthy" on an AR15 means conventional M16A1/A2 sights only front and back... no globe/supermodel thin front sights, diopter/micrometer rear sights or extended sight radius nonsense? Pretty much as Uncle Sam issued, correct? Edited December 11, 2015 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericm Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 (edited) I am tempted to put together an iron sight rifle just for this match. Last time I ran irons on my rifle I used a globe front sight and A2-style rear. Can I assume "battleworthy" on an AR15 means conventional M16A1/A2 sights only front and back... no globe/supermodel thin front sights, diopter/micrometer rear sights or extended sight radius nonsense? Pretty much as Uncle Sam issued, correct? The old match allowed match configuration of standard iron sights, I'll have to see if I can't add the exact wording from earlier matches. The rules on the website are from 1999, but I remember some verbiage about this in older rulesets. Basically, National Match versions of the issue irons were allowed, including thin front posts, finer elevation / windage adjustments, etc. as long as they were the "issue" sights (just like NRA Service rifle) But you are correct: No globe or non-military competition sights (micrometer, etc.) I used irons on H&K's and AR's and just thinned the front sight blade, Kurt used a stock A1 / A2 sight base moved to the end of the barrel and a stock A2 rear sight; they were fine with "all of that". ....and we will be, too ericm PS: They were definitely against extended radius on pistol sights; no Bo-Mar ramps, etc., but were fine with any type of iron sights on pistols, or shotguns; beads, Hi-Viz, Fiber Optic, tall suppressor sights, etc. Edited December 11, 2015 by ericm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 From what I understand from talking to Kurtm, no Hooded aperture target sights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 (edited) OK, so I can take the optic off my existing flat-top rifle and simply add an M16-like front sight base just behind the muzzle device, plus some kind of A2 or NM type rear sight and be GTG... correct? Sounds good - definitely cheaper than building a whole new AR15A2 upper. Edited December 11, 2015 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericm Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 (edited) From what I understand from talking to Kurtm, no Hooded aperture target sights. Not allowed: Lyman-type Hooded aperture target sights (especially front globe-type) that aren't a simple variation of the military sights.... These would be allowed: http://www.thenewrifleman.com/the-anatomy-of-a-national-match-sight/ OK, so I can take the optic off my existing flat-top rifle and simply add an M16-like front sight base just behind the muzzle device, plus some kind of A2 or NM type rear sight and be GTG... correct? Sounds good - definitely cheaper than building a whole new AR15A2 upper. That is correct. ....and they probably should be "quite robust" ericm PS: ........and have a sling,,,,,,,and make weight....... Edited December 11, 2015 by ericm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 PS: ........and have a sling,,,,,,,and make weight....... Do I have to make weight too? Better get to the gym Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colodrew Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 I wish there was a "like button" as on bookface for this thread. ⚔☠ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scout454 Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Eric, what about lightening cuts in a slide? They are no ports in the barrel. Shiny. We stand silent on that per the rules.... ....curious, though: Are they designed to let more dirt in or allow more dirt to fall clear (in a purely theoretical situation, of course) ericm Seriiously? The slide runs faster and the gun shoots flatter. The cuts also let the mud run out faster! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colodrew Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Eric, Kurt, Zac, I know I will be flogged for asking but it's better than buying another gun I don't shoot. I have an xdm .45 with a 5.25" barrel? Yes or no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmiller Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 What is this match? Well here is what it is. So many folks we run into have said...man I would have loved to be able to shoot the old SOF match. Well here is your chance. This is an exact S.O.F. style match put on by the same guys who did the last one, with almost the exact rule set......in other words you get a chance to shoot one! Some ding dong on another forum stated that "these old farts really resist change". He completely misses the point of the match. It is for all the folks who really wanted to shoot one, now have the chance to really shoot one so they can see what it was really like with the gear and firearms rules of the match at that time. BTW docmedic a 20" barreled JP CTR-02 with a TA-11 Trijicon scope, and Harris bi-pod and a nylon ching sling makes weight. The rule about muzzle breaks 1"X3" was indeed a S.O.F. legal rule changed around 1998 due to the assault weapons ban of 1994. I was the one who made the ruling on 3" from the crown of the barrel forward, instead of over all length. Even those of us that never were able to go to SOF miss this format. Our earlier matches were run pretty much this way and most of the mathces up until about 6-8 years ago at least attempted to maintain this. now it's all 'run-n-gun' style just about. Gear that would not last a day if you had to crawl 50 yards or jump over a low wall, etc.If I read the last part correctly our modern muzzle breaks on our rifles will be allowed? I have a Black Rain comp on my heavy metal gun, 1"Dia and 3" long, certainly not the old JP Tank Brake, would my BRO brake be allowed? I can dream I can make it to this match. Too far to drive alone and I really HATE to fly. Jim, you only live once! I think you and the Obi-cats should gas up the RV and do it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericm Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Eric, Kurt, Zac, I know I will be flogged for asking but it's better than buying another gun I don't shoot. I have an xdm .45 with a 5.25" barrel? Yes or no? After doing some research, here is what I have found.... 1. There was, in fact, a rule allowing Glock 34 & 35 pistols in the later years of the match. 2. Glock bbl length is listed as 5.31", XDM is listed as 5.25", M&P Pro is listed at 5". 3. My old Chinese 1911 built up for me by Kurt has a nominal 5-1/8" bbl from breech face to end of bbl. .....so we will allow all manner of FACTORY LENGTH BARREL guns up to and including the G34 / G35 Glocks. The call will be if you've got an extended, threaded, aftermarket or factory barrel that exceeds these nominal lengths (that's what we call a clue), the tape measure will come out, and we're going to tell you to put the short factory barrel back in it, or you can't use it. To paraphrase Jim Brown in Ice Station Zebra: "There will be an equipment inspection at every stage; and, gentlemen, it will be a bitch....." Fair enough?? (I'm just kidding, we're really not asking you.....) ericm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Ok I am totally on board with ericm and his excellent rendition of what the old SOF shooters meeting was like...and I liked it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmiller Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Eric, Kurt, Zac, I know I will be flogged for asking but it's better than buying another gun I don't shoot. I have an xdm .45 with a 5.25" barrel? Yes or no? After doing some research, here is what I have found.... 1. There was, in fact, a rule allowing Glock 34 & 35 pistols in the later years of the match. 2. Glock bbl length is listed as 5.31", XDM is listed as 5.25", M&P Pro is listed at 5". 3. My old Chinese 1911 built up for me by Kurt has a nominal 5-1/8" bbl from breech face to end of bbl. .....so we will allow all manner of FACTORY LENGTH BARREL guns up to and including the G34 / G35 Glocks. The call will be if you've got an extended, threaded, aftermarket or factory barrel that exceeds these nominal lengths (that's what we call a clue), the tape measure will come out, and we're going to tell you to put the short factory barrel back in it, or you can't use it. To paraphrase Jim Brown in Ice Station Zebra: "There will be an equipment inspection at every stage; and, gentlemen, it will be a bitch....." Fair enough?? (I'm just kidding, we're really not asking you.....) ericm Hell, I have a 6" sight tracker that came out of a factory.? What's 3/4" among friends? Ok, now where did I put my fire suit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericm Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 I am building custom tape measure "holsters" that leave no more than 2" of the top exposed for all of the RO's...... ericm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colodrew Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Eric, Kurt, Zac, I know I will be flogged for asking but it's better than buying another gun I don't shoot. I have an xdm .45 with a 5.25" barrel? Yes or no? After doing some research, here is what I have found.... 1. There was, in fact, a rule allowing Glock 34 & 35 pistols in the later years of the match. 2. Glock bbl length is listed as 5.31", XDM is listed as 5.25", M&P Pro is listed at 5". 3. My old Chinese 1911 built up for me by Kurt has a nominal 5-1/8" bbl from breech face to end of bbl. .....so we will allow all manner of FACTORY LENGTH BARREL guns up to and including the G34 / G35 Glocks. The call will be if you've got an extended, threaded, aftermarket or factory barrel that exceeds these nominal lengths (that's what we call a clue), the tape measure will come out, and we're going to tell you to put the short factory barrel back in it, or you can't use it. To paraphrase Jim Brown in Ice Station Zebra: "There will be an equipment inspection at every stage; and, gentlemen, it will be a bitch....." Fair enough?? (I'm just kidding, we're really not asking you.....) ericm Hell, I have a 6" sight tracker that came out of a factory. What's 3/4" among friends? Ok, now where did I put my fire suit? Even if Eric said yes I'm not dragging my SVI through the stages Zak and crew will be dreaming up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToysRUs Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) So what about this Major/Minor power factory malarkey??? I get to shoot powderpuff 135pf if I shoot 9 but have to make big power if I bring a .40? So why would I bring a .40? Besides that it's more manly? Is minor scored more punitively and must the minor shooter wear a tutu? And, will there be Bushwackers served after the match? Edited December 17, 2015 by ToysRUs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
co-exprs Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Scoring advantage means major PF for the win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thermobollocks Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 So what about this Major/Minor power factory malarkey??? I get to shoot powderpuff 135pf if I shoot 9 but have to make big power if I bring a .40? So why would I bring a .40? Besides that it's more manly? Basically factory Gold Dots out of a 4 to 5 inch barrel. I dig it. The .40's good if it matches your stroller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericm Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 (edited) So what about this Major/Minor power factory malarkey??? I get to shoot powderpuff 135pf if I shoot 9 but have to make big power if I bring a .40? So why would I bring a .40? Besides that it's more manly? Is minor scored more punitively and must the minor shooter wear a tutu? And, will there be Bushwackers served after the match? 3.2. Scoring the RESURGENCE target is as follows: ZONE MAJOR MINOR A (8” circle + head) 10 10 B (12”x6” CM) 8 7 C (REST OF TARGET) 6 4 X.XX Tutu: Any shooter wearing a tutu must also wear at least 2 layers of DARK colored OPAQUE full length tights. If the required number of DARK OPAQUE tights are worn under the tutu, no bushwhacking is required. I hope (This means: I don't care if) this answers your questions..... ericm Edited December 17, 2015 by ericm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 So what about this Major/Minor power factory malarkey??? I get to shoot powderpuff 135pf if I shoot 9 but have to make big power if I bring a .40? So why would I bring a .40? Besides that it's more manly? Is minor scored more punitively and must the minor shooter wear a tutu? And, will there be Bushwackers served after the match? 3.2. Scoring the RESURGENCE target is as follows: ZONE MAJOR MINOR A (8” circle + head) 10 10 B (12”x6” CM) 8 7 C (REST OF TARGET) 6 4 X.XX Tutu: Any shooter wearing a tutu must also wear at least 2 layers of DARK colored OPAQUE full length tights. If the required number of DARK OPAQUE tights are worn under the tutu, no bushwhacking is required. I hope (This means: I don't care if) this answers your questions..... ericm Not really. What do the points mean? I can't remember how this dang thing was scored. Comstock, neutralization based on points, some strange method determined by the fastest to sacrifice a chicken using their front sight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted December 17, 2015 Share Posted December 17, 2015 Points will be totaled up on fingers and toes, then inscribed to stone tablets, later to be multiplied by the length of a particular organ (not sure who's) by abacus, the product will be then modified with a formula comparing the total number of rounds fired on each stage to the number of people Chuck Norris's character killed in Delta Force while dual wielding mini uzis. This final figure will be used as the numerator in a fraction with Kurt's B.A.C. forming the denominator. This will be added for each stage and used to determine order of walking the prize table. Actual score will be time plus 1.3 seconds for every point dropped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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