kneelingatlas Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) At this point I think I'm using the camera to it's full potential and the editing is pretty decent, so I'm starting a fresh thread to share my videos. I shot the same load (9.3gr SP2 under a 115gr RN @ 1.165") through five guns today. I intend to chrono this load in each gun and will update with the power factor achieved by each setup. In the future I hope to compare guns with the same PF rather than the same load. Edited November 10, 2015 by kneelingatlas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) Edited November 10, 2015 by kneelingatlas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Love your work. The 3 port tanfog and Cheely both seemed to perform nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.Elliott Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Nice! Very informative vids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 It's worth mentioning that both the Tanfoglios are stroked, the chrome one by 0.200" and the two tone by ~1.135". Clearly the CZ still needs work, it's not stroked, has a full weight slide and no holes in the barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bamboo Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Nice work and interesting to watch. So, a couple of qualitative questions for our intrepid test shooter: 1. Which one has the best feel to you? 2. Which one do you think you shoot better in matches? 3. Which one did you feel has the best (most predictable) dot tracking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 I'm going to reserve judgement until I put them all over a chrono with that same load, but at the moment I think the chrome Tanfoglio feels the best. I also want to buy new springs for the 2011s, the bronze CFD gun had an awesome 17oz trigger for about 2K rounds then it started to slam fire so I tweaked the flat spring and screwed it all up; the pull is really inconsistent now and ~4lbs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EngineerEli Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 I would be curious to know the reciprocating mass of each set up. From the vids it looks like the guns with more extremely lightened slides lift less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bamboo Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Fair enough. At the conclusion of your evaluations I'd be interested in reading about your qualitative perceptions. Part of the reason I am curious that it seems I shoot one particular gun slightly better than my others, but it is not my favorite gun to shoot (by feel) and it certainly is not the "flattest" shooting gun. However, it has very predictable dot tracking and I seem to be "timed" to that gun's natural rhythm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garmil Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 What differences do you feel from the tanfoglios being stroked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 In all of the videos the primary "Muzzle Flip" generator is the slide bottoming out against the frame in the back position. You can try different angles of firing pin stops and hammer spring weights to increase the leverage against the slide coming back super fast and slamming into the rear position excessively. In my testing changing the angle of the firing pin stop has a more dramatic and non-liner affect to the muzzle flip and overall slide speed. Too little angle and it creates an excessive tip up of the muzzle as the slide starts to come back. Too much angle and it unlocks and comes back very easily which usually creates too much slide velocity and an excessive muzzle flip in the rear position. Tuning the angle of the firing pin stop and hammer spring weight is a user preference thing so what one shooter "Likes" could feel like dog crap to another shooter. In all of those videos its looking like there is way too much rearward slide velocity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aircooled6racer Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Charlie: That is the joy of high speed camera work. You can see what is actually going on. You would be surprised to see what your limited gun is doing under recoil with a high speed camera. Good luck on your search for the ultimate comp. It took me about 30 different designs and lots of testing. It was fun to try different things and also try some other comp designs to see what actually works. Thanks, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 Garmil, stroking the Tanfoglios made them tangibly softer during recoil. The factory stroke of a CZ 75 pattern pistol is. 1.875" (both large and small frame) whereas the stroke of a 2011 is 2.115"; I've heard Akai strokes his 2011s somewhere between 0.200" and 0.400" although I don't have any first hand experience. For whatever reason I don't think a super long stroke works for CZ 75 pattern pistols, you can stroke a Hunter with a guide rod change. I shot my .40 Hunter with factory stroke, +0.134" and +~0.400" (I can't seem to find any notes and I sold that upper) and I remember the longest stroke feeling strange, like it was too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 Here is my addition to the discussion. This is 9mm Major PF with a 124gr Bullet and HS-6 Powder. Spring setup is an 18lb Hammer, Very Rounded Firing Pin Stop, and 7lb Recoil. This setup is close to optimal but not quite there yet due to the whole gun displacement and the small muzzle bounce as the slide snaps back forward. I think the 124gr bullets are simply too much mass to get accelerated at Major PF velocities without causing excessive gun displacement. The next ammo setup I am going to try will be a 115gr bullet with HS-6 powder. Once I get that I will do another slow motion video to have a comparison. I have also tried Autocomp and SP2 powders and both produce way too much gas which makes the dot dive straight down as the shot fires. This dot diving straight down seems to be a fairly unique issue to me as I grip the crap out of the gun. All of the other local Open shooters have not observed a "Diving Dot" issue using Autocomp or SP2 powders but then again they also grip the gun like wussies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzt Posted November 10, 2015 Share Posted November 10, 2015 (edited) Interesting comments CHA-LEE. I looked at all of KA's videos and found the Cheely comp video to be surprising. First, the gasses exit the bleeder at the front of the comp before they exit through the up ports. That was quite surprising. The second thing I noticed is the initial reaction when fired is down. The muzzle rises while the slide travels backwards and accelerates upward when the slide is fully to the rear. In the Tanfo video just above it, the gasses only exit the first port, the slide operates much more quickly. It jerks the muzzle up when at the rear and slams the muzzle down when it closes. In the first video (CZ 5-port) the gasses come out of the top and bleeder ports essentially simultaneously. The initial down dip is very slight and quick. The muzzle dips a lot on slide closing. Edited November 10, 2015 by zzt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jid2 Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 CHA-LEE what are you shooting into, I want garage a range! I agree that grip and how you physically control recoil ends up being a major factor to the end result. Video are fun to watch, what are you guys filming with? CFD comp in KA's video seems pretty balanced with low flip, I'm good with that! I also know what it's like to have the trigger be too firm, it really screws with your head after having things dialed in nice and light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted November 11, 2015 Share Posted November 11, 2015 CHA-LEE what are you shooting into, I want garage a range! I agree that grip and how you physically control recoil ends up being a major factor to the end result. Video are fun to watch, what are you guys filming with? CFD comp in KA's video seems pretty balanced with low flip, I'm good with that! I also know what it's like to have the trigger be too firm, it really screws with your head after having things dialed in nice and light. I am shooting into a buddies Bullet Trap. Its a home made setup with AR500 steel in the back and multiple layers of wood and rubber in front and sides of it. I think he has to rebuild the rubber/wood portion every 1000 rounds or so. This home made setup is not good for practice or training as there isn't enough ventilation to keep the air clean. But it works good for firing some test rounds into it or chronoing loads. It sure does beat driving 50 miles one way to my "Local" range to do the same thing outdoors. I am using my iPhone 6 with the Slow Motion Video feature to capture the footage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted November 11, 2015 Author Share Posted November 11, 2015 Jared, I'm using a GoPro Hero 4 Black shooting 720p at 240fps. A friend helped me diagnose the trigger issue as the trigger bar dragging on the mag, I'll probably redo that video next session (I was flinching like crazy!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kk4364 Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 So this may be a dumb question but watching both videos I noticed something. I am relatively new to competition shooting with only a year and a half in uspsa under my belt. The question is I noticed in both videos that neither of you guys are using/utilizing the front of trigger guard. And I wonder if that would keep the muzzle flatter while shooting? Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EngineerEli Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 I've been thinking about this, and have a question. Our focus is jumping to slide velocity, and we are considering that a more squared firing pin stop may help slow the initial rearward acceleration of the slide, reducing muzzle flip, but how do you know when to play with the profile of the firing pin stop, vs just upping the recoil spring weight of the gun. If he just upped the recoil spring weight an lb or two, shouldn't it reduce the muzzle flip at the rear of the recoil movement? Or would that then just cause too much muzzle dip when the gun returns to battery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 So this may be a dumb question but watching both videos I noticed something. I am relatively new to competition shooting with only a year and a half in uspsa under my belt. The question is I noticed in both videos that neither of you guys are using/utilizing the front of trigger guard. And I wonder if that would keep the muzzle flatter while shooting? Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk NOBODY I know uses that technique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kk4364 Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EngineerEli Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 As for the grip, most people do not use it anymore... except I think Eric Grauffel does for whatever reason. I would think it would be best for people with very large hands maybe? Either way I do not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kk4364 Posted November 12, 2015 Share Posted November 12, 2015 This is not a comped gun nor open this is how I grip my guns. I figured that this grip would help with muzzle rise. Am I wrong thinking this way? Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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