Grand Power Xcaliber Vs Tanfo Stock 2

[johnbu]

Does anyone have direct experience shooting both the Xcaliber and the Stock 2 ?

Mostly interested in how recoil compares and how flat running.

[Kingman]

They are all similar with flat recoil. Very flat low muzzle rise on both guns.

Trigger is about the same out of the box, Xcal was a bit smoother. Stock 2 can be tuned.

Xcal is lighter, great for swinging wide transition targets. It would really shins in steel challenge.

[valerko]

Not exactly what you looking for , but close

[johnbu]

They are all similar with flat recoil. Very flat low muzzle rise on both guns.

Trigger is about the same out of the box, Xcal was a bit smoother. Stock 2 can be tuned.

Xcal is lighter, great for swinging wide transition targets. It would really shins in steel challenge.

I just tuned a couple S2's for a buddy, with full EG go fast and bling parts doing full polish. da dropped from 11+# to just under 7 and sa from over 4 to just over 3. But that took adding a couple hundred in trigger parts, fp and the same in better grips and sights.

I thought a stock xcal was close to a tuned up comp ready S2....?

My kid wants a better gun and the xcal out of the box sounds like a better (cost effective) package. But, I've not fondled one.

[Wesquire]

Xcaliber is not in the same league. The physics don't lie.

[TonytheTiger]

Xcaliber is not in the same league. The physics don't lie.

Go on?

[Wesquire]

Xcaliber is not in the same league. The physics don't lie.

Go on?

12 ounces less weight and virtually the same bore axis. That's all you need to know.

[sandflea]

I don't have a Stock 2 but my Xcal recoil is a little less than my SP01 shadow custom.

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk

[valerko]

I can second that.

[johnbu]

Thanks for all the input, but .... decided on another tanfo.

[Kingman]

Mine stock were better than your tuned. I thought stock 2's were around 7 and 3.

[johnbu]

Mine stock were better than your tuned. I thought stock 2's were around 7 and 3.

Not from the factory. Just measured two new stock 2's out of the box 11+ da and over 5 sa.

[rbebeau]

Xcaliber is not in the same league. The physics don't lie.

Go on?

12 ounces less weight and virtually the same bore axis. That's all you need to know.

That's not all you need to know.

The x-cal uses a rotary barrel vs the tilt barrel of the CZ/Tagfos. What is the difference in reciprocating mass? What is the moment of inertia of the two guns? ( and how does the moment change while the gun is cycling). Are the guns tuned so there isn't a 'hard' impact when the slide comes back/forward?

Then you have to look at the bio-mechanics. grip angle? palm swells? grip texture?

You have to examine a gun as a whole, not just a mass/bore axis.

[zhunter]

Kingman

How does the magwell of the X-Cal compare to a Shadow? I'm currently using a P-09 for CO and the magwell is much less forgiving than a Shadow. Is the X-Cal beveled?

[JRM83]

Kingman

How does the magwell of the X-Cal compare to a Shadow? I'm currently using a P-09 for CO and the magwell is much less forgiving than a Shadow. Is the X-Cal beveled?

You might call it a slight touch of beveling (if any), but it's not as beveled as the SP01s are. It's surprisingly big and forgiving though. I give a slight edge to the SP01, but not by much.

[Wesquire]

Xcaliber is not in the same league. The physics don't lie.

Go on?

12 ounces less weight and virtually the same bore axis. That's all you need to know.

That's not all you need to know.

The x-cal uses a rotary barrel vs the tilt barrel of the CZ/Tagfos. What is the difference in reciprocating mass? What is the moment of inertia of the two guns? ( and how does the moment change while the gun is cycling). Are the guns tuned so there isn't a 'hard' impact when the slide comes back/forward?

Then you have to look at the bio-mechanics. grip angle? palm swells? grip texture?

You have to examine a gun as a whole, not just a mass/bore axis.

A rotary barrel does not extinguish recoil. The rotary barrel induces a horizontal force. However, neither the tilt nor the rotation of the barrel has any significant effect on recoil or muzzle flip. Reciprocating mass does not directly matter. The inertial forces matter. When you shoot ammo of the same Power Factor you are going to have roughly the same reciprocating inertia. Again however, this is largely insignificant. Revolvers have muzzle flip and it is obviously not due to their slide weights. Lighter slides do nothing to change recoil, and the effect on muzzle flip is almost entirely subjective and mitigated by recoil spring tuning. When you look at the actual physics, all that really matters is the mass and the bore axis. I'm including the location of the mass in that. You can't get around Newton's third by wishful thinking. And that opposite force is directed at the bore axis. It is then just a simple matter of leverage.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Wesquire

[jrbet83]

Xcaliber is not in the same league. The physics don't lie.

Go on?

12 ounces less weight and virtually the same bore axis. That's all you need to know.

That's not all you need to know.

The x-cal uses a rotary barrel vs the tilt barrel of the CZ/Tagfos. What is the difference in reciprocating mass? What is the moment of inertia of the two guns? ( and how does the moment change while the gun is cycling). Are the guns tuned so there isn't a 'hard' impact when the slide comes back/forward?

Then you have to look at the bio-mechanics. grip angle? palm swells? grip texture?

You have to examine a gun as a whole, not just a mass/bore axis.

A rotary barrel does not extinguish recoil. The rotary barrel induces a horizontal force. However, neither the tilt nor the rotation of the barrel has any significant effect on recoil or muzzle flip. Reciprocating mass does not directly matter. The inertial forces matter. When you shoot ammo of the same Power Factor you are going to have roughly the same reciprocating inertia. Again however, this is largely insignificant. Revolvers have muzzle flip and it is obviously not due to their slide weights. Lighter slides do nothing to change recoil, and the effect on muzzle flip is almost entirely subjective and mitigated by recoil spring tuning. When you look at the actual physics, all that really matters is the mass and the bore axis. I'm including the location of the mass in that. You can't get around Newton's third by wishful thinking. And that opposite force is directed at the bore axis. It is then just a simple matter of leverage.

When you shot the x caliber, did you not think it shot as flat as a cz?

[Steve Moneypenny]

Everyone feels somewhat differently, I'm a big guy with a strong grip, the X cal feels different. the recoil is not any worse than a stock 2 or a CZ it's a different impulse though. I like the lightness for transitions, etc. I don't feel it's any slower at all on splits.

My X cal was about 7 and 3# on the weight. of the trigger. I think the mag well is between the CZ and the Stock 2 honestly, If you reload well at all it's very easy to hit. ... By the time you put the money into tuning the Tangfo you could almost buy a backup X cal.

[valerko]

They recoil about the same , but considering weight difference between them , I'd say rotating barrel has something to do with it. Strap 1/2 pound of weight on the accessory rail and I bet you there will be significant difference in recoil.

[Wesquire]

I'd like to know why you think the rotating barrel has any real effect on muzzle flip. How much force do you really think the barrel moving ~1cm makes? And that force doesn't appear from nowhere, it directly reduces that force from the slide movement. It makes zero difference. The recoil difference between the grand power and the cz/tanfos is like 115gr vs 147gr. The 115gr should actually shoot flatter, but the 147s are softer. Almost everyone shoots the 147s better. The flatness comes from being more snappy, this moves people off target more. I would imagine the 160grs would be nice in the grand powers. But you can't get around physics.

[bulm540]

Once you go stock (2) you won' t go back.

[valerko]

I'd like to know why you think the rotating barrel has any real effect on muzzle flip. How much force do you really think the barrel moving ~1cm makes? And that force doesn't appear from nowhere, it directly reduces that force from the slide movement. It makes zero difference. The recoil difference between the grand power and the cz/tanfos is like 115gr vs 147gr. The 115gr should actually shoot flatter, but the 147s are softer. Almost everyone shoots the 147s better. The flatness comes from being more snappy, this moves people off target more. I would imagine the 160grs would be nice in the grand powers. But you can't get around physics.

Not sure how , but you can see clearly in the video they recoil about the same and GP is lot lighter then CZ , so if you'd add weight to the GP to make it apples to apples , I'd say GP would be a winner.

I shoot 165s out of my GP and love it. Feels really light on recoil. Follow up shoots are real fast and easy.

[rbebeau]

I'd like to know why you think the rotating barrel has any real effect on muzzle flip.

My degree in physics

When we talk about 'recoil', we need to analyse the properties of the system ( mass, Inertia Tensor, connection points, ect), forces involved, the resultant forces, pivot point and torques, momentum of the slide & frame ( your not using 'inertia' in the right way ), the energy transfer, and the time period for all these things.

Okay, doing ^ is REALLY hard. Since this tread is tending toward the spinning barrel thing I'm going to try to explain my thinking.

What shooters call 'recoil' is primary caused by the 'impulse' imparted on the gun by gas expanding and the bullet leaving the gun. Impulse is force/time. The impulse can be broken into two parts, the linear impulse ( that is, through the axis of the barrel ), and the angular impulse ( that is around the pivot point - your wrist ). The 'push' that you feel is the linear impulse, where the 'muzzle flip' is the angular impulse acting on you.

Both the linear force that causes the bullet exiting the barrel, and the force that causes the barrel moving upwards ( this is actually a resultant force) cause a torque around the wrist that add in the same direction. This causes rotation of the object and we get 'muzzle flip'. Side Note: The farther away the force is from the pivot point, the higher the torque. That's why a low bore axis helps.

Now when you have a rotating barrel you no longer have the second force adding to the angular impulse that acts 'up'. Instead you have a force that tries to 'roll' the gun. Since this force is acting close to the center of mass of the system, it will cause a small torque and a small angular impulse.

I have been sloppy in my wording to try to be clear to a reader who has not taken advanced mechanics classes.

[Wesquire]

I'd like to know why you think the rotating barrel has any real effect on muzzle flip.

My degree in physics

When we talk about 'recoil', we need to analyse the properties of the system ( mass, Inertia Tensor, connection points, ect), forces involved, the resultant forces, pivot point and torques, momentum of the slide & frame ( your not using 'inertia' in the right way ), the energy transfer, and the time period for all these things.

Okay, doing ^ is REALLY hard. Since this tread is tending toward the spinning barrel thing I'm going to try to explain my thinking.

What shooters call 'recoil' is primary caused by the 'impulse' imparted on the gun by gas expanding and the bullet leaving the gun. Impulse is force/time. The impulse can be broken into two parts, the linear impulse ( that is, through the axis of the barrel ), and the angular impulse ( that is around the pivot point - your wrist ). The 'push' that you feel is the linear impulse, where the 'muzzle flip' is the angular impulse acting on you.

Both the linear force that causes the bullet exiting the barrel, and the force that causes the barrel moving upwards ( this is actually a resultant force) cause a torque around the wrist that add in the same direction. This causes rotation of the object and we get 'muzzle flip'. Side Note: The farther away the force is from the pivot point, the higher the torque. That's why a low bore axis helps.

Now when you have a rotating barrel you no longer have the second force adding to the angular impulse that acts 'up'. Instead you have a force that tries to 'roll' the gun. Since this force is acting close to the center of mass of the system, it will cause a small torque and a small angular impulse.

I have been sloppy in my wording to try to be clear to a reader who has not taken advanced mechanics classes.

That's nonsense. The force doesn't come from nowhere. You don't have the force on the slide from the firing AND the force from the barrel tilt. Whatever force the tilt has (which is almost nothing AND the force is directed at the center of mass of the gun DOWNWARDS i.e. no effect on flip) is taken off of the force from the slide. The barrel tilt has nothing to do with it. Beyond that, CZ/Tanfo style pistols have basically no barrel tilt anyways. The tilt vs rotation is a complete non-factor. Even if we assumed you were right, I'd much rather have (and it would be objectively better for our sport) all the forces going the same way than a corkscrew force throwing the sights in a figure 8. However, that's just not how it works.

The "tilt" in a CZ style pistol

https://rhk111firearmsblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/2012-12-22_cz-75b_omega_slide_locked_back.jpg

How it actually works

http://i.imgur.com/47rD2Ts.gif

As you can see, the tilt is little more than the locking lugs just not making contact so the barrel falls down a tad. There's absolutely zero force being put on the slide by the barrel dropping out of lock.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Wesquire

[johnbu]

Uh.... my vote of confidence goes to the physics degree.

My few classes in physics, statics, dynamics make me agree much more with him.

Probably felt recoil is mitigated by the rotating machanism taking a longer time, thus reducing the magnitude impulse. At a guess, the rotation probably starts sooner than the unlocking in the cz pattern. Even a few miliseconds here and there can make a felt difference.