lrdchaos Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Been doing some research. What is the general consensus on Black Nitride vs Hard Chrome? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff1383 Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I'm not a big fan of hard chrome. That being said I just got a ck arms steel grip and small parts coated by h&m metal processing in Black Nitride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aircooled6racer Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Hello: Hard chrome will last a very long time and is very slick. That is why they hard chrome printing rollers and other high wear parts. Thanks, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clawson2011 Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I'm a fan of both but for slide to frame I vote hard chrome only. high wear and slicker than snot with a little mobile 1 on the rails Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Miles Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Hello: Hard chrome will last a very long time and is very slick. That is why they hard chrome printing rollers and other high wear parts. Thanks, Eric+1!Hard chrome is a long time tried and true HARD surface treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrdchaos Posted October 14, 2015 Author Share Posted October 14, 2015 Thank you. I don't really care for the look of the entire pistol when it's hardchromed. I may try a mixture of the two, to break up the look a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Tompkins Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Read here: http://www.burlingtoneng.com/wear_resistance.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrb06 Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I choose Black Nitride on my new Cheely build and my reason was I currently have several Hard Chrome guns and wanted to try something different. In my job I have exposer to using the Blake Nitride application on hydraulic rams for large Hwy truck snow plows. Typically these rams are chrome and being exposed to the salt, pounding, and extreme conditions the chrome would pitt, flake and causing seal failure. The Black Nitride rams we currently use in the same application have stood up better to this exposer than the chrome ones and we have seen a reduction in ram pitting and seal failure. I am not saying hard Chrome is not good I like it on the guns that have it, just pointing out that Black Nitride may be tougher than people think. Again it comes down to preference mostly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sn0wflake Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 (edited) Been doing some research. What is the general consensus on Black Nitride vs Hard Chrome? I'm not from the gun industry but from the regular metal/metalworking/metallurgy/heat treating camp I'd say nitriding is better finish than chrome, depending on what you want to do with it. Many hydraulic pistons are hard chromed, it usually quite a thick layer that can be reground/repolished several times before you get through to the base metal, the base metal is usually a full hard (like 50-60hrc) rod of steel. I like hard chrome because you can re-polish it several times if done right (in hydraulic machinery). Its supposedly 68hrc, if the hrc scale went that high with accuracy that is (which it doesn't do). As a reference a 0.8% C steel when full hard is 64hrc, (why 0.8%?? because thats when the steel is neither deprived of, nor has an abundance of carbon, ALL the carbon gets put to use/gets dissolved/is used to make "martensite", only in simple carbon steels though) when its fully hardened. Hard chrome if you ask me does not protect steel as good as you would think, several times a year we send out machine parts for regrinding and rechroming because they simply rusted. i guess its because hard chrome is not diffusion proof (gases can move through this) Also if the base metal is soft the chrome will flake. If the base metal bends. Nitrides are usually high temperature coatings that partially diffuse into the base metal creating a hybrid layer and its gets more and more pure nitride towards the surface. should be diffusion proof/sealed. All the glocks are nitrided, actually nitrocarburated, or is it carbonitrided. Pretty much they heat up the part to over 500deg celsius and then subject the part to nitride forming gases and hydrocarbons, depending on how thick you want the nitride layer you increase the temps (make the gasses diffuse faster into the base metal) and soak time. There are tables for this. Temperature is just a measure of how fast atoms move and how much they move. at -273C they almost don't move at all so all reactions halt to a stop. in steels destined for nitriding you usually add small amounts of aluminum and vanadium and titanium and similar. Because these alloying elements just love to make nitrides when they get the chance, such as titanium nitride (the yellow stuff on drill bits). Now one thing to consider with nitrides is this: you usually need to heat the part to over 500deg C, and if the part was hardened and then tempered at lets say 200C, that 500C soak would soften the base metal significantly, since you are basically re-tempering it. This is why most "high speed steel"/HSS (the steel used in drill bits/milling tools and so on) are designed to be hardened and then tempered at like 550-650 deg C to achieve the full hardness. So you can conveniently do the tempering in a molten salt bath or nitriding oven and not ruin the material. Nitrides won't flake off like chrome will since it gets gradually diffused into the base metal, but still, the thinner the coat the more flexible it will be, following the base metal when it bends, if put on thick it could potentially flake off so some degree too I guess (never seen it though). I believe the thickes nitride coats you can get are from the plasmanitride process, where they typically shoot ions/electrons or whatever crap onto the surface at somewhat highish temp, and the part may be or may not be electrically charged while doing so. I think the max diffusion depth is like 0.2mm here maybe even 0.3mm. The cool thing with plasma nitride is that you can select to coat only one single side of a cube for example, since you are actually shooting this on. And now back to guns, is the frame/slide is tempered at less than 500 or so deg C it could be unwise to nitride it depending on how it gets used. since the base metal will get softened by doing this. And then you have like a hard surface on soft base metal. Think anodized alu that you bang up a bit, the alu oxide is rock hard but the alu itself is butter soft. For rust resistance I'd guess the nitrides win every time. but for durability of the coat (metal-metal sliding action) Maybe the hard chrome will win that one since you can put that stuff on thick! Usually the nitride coating are not 0.2mm! its maybe a 1/10 of that. And very often it seems like its just a decorative finish! (on golden cheap china drill bits). The ultimate situation would be this: slide/frame/part of choice made from hardenable steel (at least 0.3%C to make it "hardenable"), microalloyed with nitride forming alloys, hardened and tempered to achieve target hardness (whatever that now may be) after a 550C tempering, then nitrided, thick (long soak) at 550C or so. Then its win-win. It is what it is. I'm guessing a nitrided part would be more stain resistant for quite some time and the hard chromed would stay tighter longer and only offering medium stain resistance. Talking guns in general. I have read several books about this and I'm in charge of repairing stuff thats is both hard chromed and plasma nitrided on a daily basis. buy hey I'm not an industry professional. I do know the basics though. And now, you do too. Edited October 14, 2015 by sn0wflake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogiebb Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Been doing some research. What is the general consensus on Black Nitride vs Hard Chrome? I'm not from the gun industry but from the regular metal/metalworking/metallurgy/heat treating camp I'd say nitriding is better finish than chrome, depending on what you want to do with it. Many hydraulic pistons are hard chromed, it usually quite a thick layer that can be reground/repolished several times before you get through to the base metal, the base metal is usually a full hard (like 50-60hrc) rod of steel. I like hard chrome because you can re-polish it several times if done right (in hydraulic machinery). Its supposedly 68hrc, if the hrc scale went that high with accuracy that is (which it doesn't do). As a reference a 0.8% C steel when full hard is 64hrc, (why 0.8%?? because thats when the steel is neither deprived of, nor has an abundance of carbon, ALL the carbon gets put to use/gets dissolved/is used to make "martensite", only in simple carbon steels though) when its fully hardened. Hard chrome if you ask me does not protect steel as good as you would think, several times a year we send out machine parts for regrinding and rechroming because they simply rusted. i guess its because hard chrome is not diffusion proof (gases can move through this) Also if the base metal is soft the chrome will flake. If the base metal bends. Nitrides are usually high temperature coatings that partially diffuse into the base metal creating a hybrid layer and its gets more and more pure nitride towards the surface. should be diffusion proof/sealed. All the glocks are nitrided, actually nitrocarburated, or is it carbonitrided. Pretty much they heat up the part to over 500deg celsius and then subject the part to nitride forming gases and hydrocarbons, depending on how thick you want the nitride layer you increase the temps (make the gasses diffuse faster into the base metal) and soak time. There are tables for this. Temperature is just a measure of how fast atoms move and how much they move. at -273C they almost don't move at all so all reactions halt to a stop. in steels destined for nitriding you usually add small amounts of aluminum and vanadium and titanium and similar. Because these alloying elements just love to make nitrides when they get the chance, such as titanium nitride (the yellow stuff on drill bits). Now one thing to consider with nitrides is this: you usually need to heat the part to over 500deg C, and if the part was hardened and then tempered at lets say 200C, that 500C soak would soften the base metal significantly, since you are basically re-tempering it. This is why most "high speed steel"/HSS (the steel used in drill bits/milling tools and so on) are designed to be hardened and then tempered at like 550-650 deg C to achieve the full hardness. So you can conveniently do the tempering in a molten salt bath or nitriding oven and not ruin the material. Nitrides won't flake off like chrome will since it gets gradually diffused into the base metal, but still, the thinner the coat the more flexible it will be, following the base metal when it bends, if put on thick it could potentially flake off so some degree too I guess (never seen it though). I believe the thickes nitride coats you can get are from the plasmanitride process, where they typically shoot ions/electrons or whatever crap onto the surface at somewhat highish temp, and the part may be or may not be electrically charged while doing so. I think the max diffusion depth is like 0.2mm here maybe even 0.3mm. The cool thing with plasma nitride is that you can select to coat only one single side of a cube for example, since you are actually shooting this on. And now back to guns, is the frame/slide is tempered at less than 500 or so deg C it could be unwise to nitride it depending on how it gets used. since the base metal will get softened by doing this. And then you have like a hard surface on soft base metal. Think anodized alu that you bang up a bit, the alu oxide is rock hard but the alu itself is butter soft. For rust resistance I'd guess the nitrides win every time. but for durability of the coat (metal-metal sliding action) Maybe the hard chrome will win that one since you can put that stuff on thick! Usually the nitride coating are not 0.2mm! its maybe a 1/10 of that. And very often it seems like its just a decorative finish! (on golden cheap china drill bits). The ultimate situation would be this: slide/frame/part of choice made from hardenable steel (at least 0.3%C to make it "hardenable"), microalloyed with nitride forming alloys, hardened and tempered to achieve target hardness (whatever that now may be) after a 550C tempering, then nitrided, thick (long soak) at 550C or so. Then its win-win. It is what it is. I'm guessing a nitrided part would be more stain resistant for quite some time and the hard chromed would stay tighter longer and only offering medium stain resistance. Talking guns in general. I have read several books about this and I'm in charge of repairing stuff thats is both hard chromed and plasma nitrided on a daily basis. buy hey I'm not an industry professional. I do know the basics though. And now, you do too. is it possible to Hard Chrome the part if it was Salt Bath Nitrided before? Thanks for sharing your experience on this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sn0wflake Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I would also like to add another thing: high hardness in steels doesn't automatically mean more brittle (but usually it does) there are several steels that are at their highest tougness at pretty much their highest hardness. (used in knives), some steels are hardened softer to "increase their tougness" but in reality you have just made the steels both weaker and less tough by hardening at lower temp. hardness in simple steels is directly related to strength. the harder the steel, the stronger it is, and the less you need to use of it to make something sufficiently strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sn0wflake Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Been doing some research. What is the general consensus on Black Nitride vs Hard Chrome? I'm not from the gun industry but from the regular metal/metalworking/metallurgy/heat treating camp I'd say nitriding is better finish than chrome, depending on what you want to do with it. Many hydraulic pistons are hard chromed, it usually quite a thick layer that can be reground/repolished several times before you get through to the base metal, the base metal is usually a full hard (like 50-60hrc) rod of steel. I like hard chrome because you can re-polish it several times if done right (in hydraulic machinery). Its supposedly 68hrc, if the hrc scale went that high with accuracy that is (which it doesn't do). As a reference a 0.8% C steel when full hard is 64hrc, (why 0.8%?? because thats when the steel is neither deprived of, nor has an abundance of carbon, ALL the carbon gets put to use/gets dissolved/is used to make "martensite", only in simple carbon steels though) when its fully hardened. Hard chrome if you ask me does not protect steel as good as you would think, several times a year we send out machine parts for regrinding and rechroming because they simply rusted. i guess its because hard chrome is not diffusion proof (gases can move through this) Also if the base metal is soft the chrome will flake. If the base metal bends. Nitrides are usually high temperature coatings that partially diffuse into the base metal creating a hybrid layer and its gets more and more pure nitride towards the surface. should be diffusion proof/sealed. All the glocks are nitrided, actually nitrocarburated, or is it carbonitrided. Pretty much they heat up the part to over 500deg celsius and then subject the part to nitride forming gases and hydrocarbons, depending on how thick you want the nitride layer you increase the temps (make the gasses diffuse faster into the base metal) and soak time. There are tables for this. Temperature is just a measure of how fast atoms move and how much they move. at -273C they almost don't move at all so all reactions halt to a stop. in steels destined for nitriding you usually add small amounts of aluminum and vanadium and titanium and similar. Because these alloying elements just love to make nitrides when they get the chance, such as titanium nitride (the yellow stuff on drill bits). Now one thing to consider with nitrides is this: you usually need to heat the part to over 500deg C, and if the part was hardened and then tempered at lets say 200C, that 500C soak would soften the base metal significantly, since you are basically re-tempering it. This is why most "high speed steel"/HSS (the steel used in drill bits/milling tools and so on) are designed to be hardened and then tempered at like 550-650 deg C to achieve the full hardness. So you can conveniently do the tempering in a molten salt bath or nitriding oven and not ruin the material. Nitrides won't flake off like chrome will since it gets gradually diffused into the base metal, but still, the thinner the coat the more flexible it will be, following the base metal when it bends, if put on thick it could potentially flake off so some degree too I guess (never seen it though). I believe the thickes nitride coats you can get are from the plasmanitride process, where they typically shoot ions/electrons or whatever crap onto the surface at somewhat highish temp, and the part may be or may not be electrically charged while doing so. I think the max diffusion depth is like 0.2mm here maybe even 0.3mm. The cool thing with plasma nitride is that you can select to coat only one single side of a cube for example, since you are actually shooting this on. And now back to guns, is the frame/slide is tempered at less than 500 or so deg C it could be unwise to nitride it depending on how it gets used. since the base metal will get softened by doing this. And then you have like a hard surface on soft base metal. Think anodized alu that you bang up a bit, the alu oxide is rock hard but the alu itself is butter soft. For rust resistance I'd guess the nitrides win every time. but for durability of the coat (metal-metal sliding action) Maybe the hard chrome will win that one since you can put that stuff on thick! Usually the nitride coating are not 0.2mm! its maybe a 1/10 of that. And very often it seems like its just a decorative finish! (on golden cheap china drill bits). The ultimate situation would be this: slide/frame/part of choice made from hardenable steel (at least 0.3%C to make it "hardenable"), microalloyed with nitride forming alloys, hardened and tempered to achieve target hardness (whatever that now may be) after a 550C tempering, then nitrided, thick (long soak) at 550C or so. Then its win-win. It is what it is. I'm guessing a nitrided part would be more stain resistant for quite some time and the hard chromed would stay tighter longer and only offering medium stain resistance. Talking guns in general. I have read several books about this and I'm in charge of repairing stuff thats is both hard chromed and plasma nitrided on a daily basis. buy hey I'm not an industry professional. I do know the basics though. And now, you do too. is it possible to Hard Chrome the part if it was Salt Bath Nitrided before? Thanks for sharing your experience on this yeah I would guess so. The chroming is an electro-chemical low temp process. I'm not sure if the chrome will stick on a nitride though. but it probably will. try it out! I would only do this if i wanted to increase the physical size of the part in question though. If I wanted to increase the life (talking abrasive/adhesive wear) I would just have it re-nitrided, but much longer soak time to increase diffusion depth. It won't grow in size though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aircooled6racer Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Hello: I had a couple of pistols done that were two tone. Ion Bond slide and hard chrome frame. The Ion Bond was worn through and the hard chrome still looked new. I think if I still wanted a two tone look I would hard chrome the whole pistol then Ceracoat the slide. That way you have very good wear surfaces and the color of the slide you want. Thanks, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Tompkins Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Hello: I had a couple of pistols done that were two tone. Ion Bond slide and hard chrome frame. The Ion Bond was worn through and the hard chrome still looked new. I think if I still wanted a two tone look I would hard chrome the whole pistol then Ceracoat the slide. That way you have very good wear surfaces and the color of the slide you want. Thanks, Eric The black surface is not the protective layer. It is a side effect of the case hardening process. You can polish off the black and you will still have the protective layer of carbonized steel. You will see this wear on high spots / corners as well as flats that rub together. The "polished" surfaces are even smoother and slicker, just not as attractive looking. I do not recommend the treatment of very small or thin parts that see a lot of impact stress. I've have had a couple 1911 link's fail after treament and the spur of a FGW lightweight hammer shear off. The process went so deep it made the parts brittle. Ntride process changes the surface of the materal, hard chrome is a layer of material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aircooled6racer Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Hello: I had a couple of pistols done that were two tone. Ion Bond slide and hard chrome frame. The Ion Bond was worn through and the hard chrome still looked new. I think if I still wanted a two tone look I would hard chrome the whole pistol then Ceracoat the slide. That way you have very good wear surfaces and the color of the slide you want. Thanks, Eric The black surface is not the protective layer. It is a side effect of the case hardening process. You can polish off the black and you will still have the protective layer of carbonized steel. You will see this wear on high spots / corners as well as flats that rub together. The "polished" surfaces are even smoother and slicker, just not as attractive looking. I do not recommend the treatment of very small or thin parts that see a lot of impact stress. I've have had a couple 1911 link's fail after treament and the spur of a FGW lightweight hammer shear off. The process went so deep it made the parts brittle. Ntride process changes the surface of the materal, hard chrome is a layer of material. Hello: I was talking about Ion Bond not nitriding. I don't see the benefit of nitriding unless you need a tuff surface treatment like for a high performance connecting rods. Since it is a heat treatment process it will depend on the base material makeup. A impact item like a hammer should be drawn back to relieve it from stresses. It also has been heat treated before hand. I still say hard chrome is the best. Not sure if any guys are still alive who where doing black chrome. Pretty bad on your health. Thanks, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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