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2015 USPSA Handgun (Limited/Open) Nationals - Stage Repeats?


JupiterAdam

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I get it but what I said in the other topic is since this is Limited & Open Nats, couldnt they have added 1 or 2 more target without adding another position so that it matches the capacity of the div. so that when u screw up, you would have to do a reload. Im not gonna worry about the L10 guys :)

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That would make for an illegal stage... at nationals.

Oh that right. Forgot about that rule.

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Yes my taste tends to lean to the high round count since this is a high round count divisions. Who cares about L10! Lol

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You clearly don't understand how to put on a balanced match... good thing others do.

You need to have speed shoots that are challenging with lots of risk vs. reward factor. It balances out the match by forcing people who are good at field courses to also do well on pure shooting skills or they'll lose any lead they gain from field courses.

I think 6/21 stages having 12 or less rounds it the perfect balance for this match. If you look at the stages 11/21 are full field courses with 4/11 medium. That's perfect. It still holds to the typical USPSA format of high round count but also incorporates non-field course skills... this is a nationals after all, the national champ should be well versed in all aspects of USPSA, not just running and gunning.

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I get that a well balanced match was needed but these stages looks more like fillers. I guess cause I'm comparing it to stages from last year in St. George. I think they could have done a nicer quick shot stages. That's all I'm saying. It's just one man's opinion. I have 2 very young kids and as I said in the other topic, forget the money. I invested precious time to support the these Nationals and for my love of the sport. I just felt like the effort wasn't reciprocated on the other end.

Last year in St. George, if I remember correctly, there was 1 or 2 at most that you can call filler quality stages. The 25-26 stages were awesome. This seemed to have doubled this year.

Again, this is just my opinion. We all have vested a lot of time and money to attend. The least, again this my opinion only, that the stages should have been a little better in terms of quality.

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What if shooters decided to boycott some of the stages as a way of protest for the lack of quality? It would have to come from the top shooters as they would have to set the example but wouldn't that be interesting?

For the $2000+ I am having to fork out to attend this, I bet you can see why I am not so happy.............

So I take it that you'll boycott stages, right? :)

I think Roy should have a sit in in the middle of his most hated stage. He can just refuse to move right up until they Taze him.

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I get that a well balanced match was needed but these stages looks more like fillers. I guess cause I'm comparing it to stages from last year in St. George. I think they could have done a nicer quick shot stages. That's all I'm saying. It's just one man's opinion. I have 2 very young kids and as I said in the other topic, forget the money. I invested precious time to support the these Nationals and for my love of the sport. I just felt like the effort wasn't reciprocated on the other end.

Last year in St. George, if I remember correctly, there was 1 or 2 at most that you can call filler quality stages. The 25-26 stages were awesome. This seemed to have doubled this year.

Again, this is just my opinion. We all have vested a lot of time and money to attend. The least, again this my opinion only, that the stages should have been a little better in terms of quality.

IIRC, There were 5-6 short courses in Utah last year.

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I get that a well balanced match was needed but these stages looks more like fillers. I guess cause I'm comparing it to stages from last year in St. George. I think they could have done a nicer quick shot stages. That's all I'm saying. It's just one man's opinion. I have 2 very young kids and as I said in the other topic, forget the money. I invested precious time to support the these Nationals and for my love of the sport. I just felt like the effort wasn't reciprocated on the other end.

Last year in St. George, if I remember correctly, there was 1 or 2 at most that you can call filler quality stages. The 25-26 stages were awesome. This seemed to have doubled this year.

Again, this is just my opinion. We all have vested a lot of time and money to attend. The least, again this my opinion only, that the stages should have been a little better in terms of quality.

IIRC, There were 5-6 short courses in Utah last year.

From the 2014 Handgun nationals matchbook: 15 Long, 7 Medium, 4 Short

2014_Handgun_Nationals_Stage_Stats.pdf

Later,

Chuck

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Roy,

The match and stages were developed and are being setup and run by USPSA, they are renting the facility

but that is the limit of our involvement. But i can't imagine Stages being exactly the same as any before.

Time will tell! See you on the range!

Manny

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Point being, for the $$ ....I want new stages and I want to be impressed. This is the US Nationals for crying out loud. Pretty sad when some Sectional and Area matches make this one look like crap. This is supposed to be the premier match of the year. So why are we settling on this? Don't you guys remember when Area 2 had such creative stages and props that you felt you just had to try and go there at least once to experience it in person? I know I did.........Dave Miller used to run a very interesting match at Topton,, Summer Blast by Larry Houck was always entertaining. Last year in Utah was 28 field courses that were nicely done-yes there were a couple of stand and shoots but nothing like the depths of this....................If I saw many of these stages at a level I match in my area, I would ask the Match Director if it was due to lack of help and I would try to be understanding. Not for this type of match. With the talent that is available at this facility, this is a highway robbery of USPSA members. Extreme difficulty such as 25 yard plates strong hand only do not make up for the lack of creativity that goes into stage design. If the stages are as they seem from the paper outlines, then USPSA deserves to see it's membership decline and folks not want to go back to Florida for another match. The membership deserves so much better as this is typical of an organization not serving it members/clients. Do this in the business world and you don't stay in business very long.

I can only hope that I am proved wrong. We are USPSA.......not IPSC. If I want to shoot an IPSC match, I will go to one. This is where we can show the rest of the world where we have it better by not having to do 3,2,1 on the stage matrix. We are 'Mericans"!!!! Let's start acting like it....Other shooters travel here to get away from the IPSC matches. Big field courses with challenging shots and lots of interesting props/platforms are what we are known for. It's not like the match venue didn't know this was coming and just started planning last month. They had a year to get ready...I had less than that to pull off 18 stages and 504 rounds for my major match this year where I had many folks ask me when I was planning on hosting a Nationals level event. So I am not saying this to complain without knowing about the time and effort it takes to pull one of these off. Frank/Manny/Shannon.......please don't let us down..............Petition to change some of the stages-no one has shot them yet so why can't these get adjusted? (wouldn't that be nice...). If Universal's defense-who decided that these would be a good idea to shoot at USPSA? NROI looks at them to make sure they fit within the rules but who actually goes over these for quality? If no one does, then why not?

What if shooters decided to boycott some of the stages as a way of protest for the lack of quality? It would have to come from the top shooters as they would have to set the example but wouldn't that be interesting?

Where is the like button?

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Yo Dudes and Dudettes,

This thread was just brought to my attention.

I apologize for not chiming in sooner but I've been busting my ass along with 8-10 volunteers and 1 employee not changing the stages for 9 hours a day the past 5 days.

To clarify some stuff. I'm just a general do-bitch at this match. Dave Jenkins is the Assistant Match Director which means he does most of everything. Phil is technically the MD, though he hasn't done much of anything. Jenkins is a very good friend of mine and he was the chief designer of the stages. He has designed many stages for me here at USA for various matches. I have/allow him to do that because he is really good at it. I consulted on them, we talked the flavor of them over, agreed and disagreed over some aspects but make no mistake, I take 100% full ownership of them as partner here at USA and as Director of competitive events here (actually, I made that title up).

A little on my philosophy as a full time shooter, National Champion, Match Director and all around good dude. This match is the USPSA National Championship. The purpose of the match is to determine the best shooter in the country in Division as well as the best shooter in Class. If you want to slide down fire poles, stripper poles, play on tanks or roller coasters, dance with gay clowns (or straight ones, that's all cool too), a National Championship at my range ain't going to be the place to do it.

The purpose of a National Championship is to test a full array of pistol skills.

We host many matches here at USA. All of our matches have a different flavor. If you've shot here I think you would agree. The FL Open, FL State, US IPSC Nationals, The Monster Match, all theses matches' stages get my stamp of approval and they have entirely different flavors, tests, and skill sets. This is not by accident.

If you want the circus stuff, come shoot our Monster Match. We've shot off the back of moving Golf Carts, off of moving tread mills, this year a machine gun may be involved.....But that isn't the Nationals.

I thought the stages in St. George were awesome! But it didn't test all skills in my opinion. Not enough medium and smaller courses. (granted I was DQ'ed last year before I got to the little stages! :() I don't think the stages were bad by any stretch, just not my opinion of a well rounded test. If you have a single accurate target.....say a mini popper or partial within the confines of a huge field course, it isn't the same as that same target within a small speed shoot or medium course. Not the same test.

I thought the stages in Vegas were good. A little similar after a few years, but overall, I thought they were good stages.

Who's been around long enough to have shot Barry? (not the Revo/SS bs, the real nats) We shot the same targets hiding behind the same goofy cartoon hardcover cars for years, the same pneumatic turning targets we always have. That is an awesome test!

None of these examples are bad....just examples. Maybe Roy has been around too long.....I think it just seems like you've seen everything dude. I'm surprised this much bad blood is coming from you. You've been around a bit, and match directed yourself.

A lot of what makes these matches great are the competition you're up against and at the Nationals it's the best of the best. I think that is something to remember as well.

End of story, if anyone wants to boycott any stage you have my permission. I will give you a heads up that that doesn't factor so well. If, however you'd like to compete for a National Title on what I think are some pretty awesome and challenging stages of fire then we got you covered.

Lets go compete!

The last thing I would add is I've shot the bigger stages a few times this week since we didn't make any changes to what was here and I think they are very nice. I've enjoyed them quite a bit. May shoot some more tomorrow after we finish finalizing the zero changes to the stages.

Edited by SmittyFL
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Thank you Kevin...............my suggestion to Mr. Foley is that he put this out there as a campaign issue..........Manny works where this debacle is occurring. That means it is happening under his watch....not something I would want to be associated with if I were looking to get votes from folks who are going to attend.

For the $2000+ I am having to fork out to attend this, I bet you can see why I am not so happy.............

USPSA is renting the range, this is their match, not Manny's.

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I've only shot USPSA a couple years now and one thing is for sure. USPSA shooters really like to bitch and complain about stuff. Roy this is just a fun match for you anyway. Go have fun. Be Happy you live in America.

Edited by Onepocket
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Roy is neither a bitcher or a complainer for no reason. He has been a large part of Michigan USPSA for many years.

He is one who is not afraid to voice his opinion on matters he feels are wrong. When I was Area 5 director I heard from Roy on occasion and while we did not always agree, I respected his views.

Feeling that something is wrong with our sport and just saying "oh well" will only lead to bad results.

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Roy is neither a bitcher or a complainer for no reason. He has been a large part of Michigan USPSA for many years.

He is one who is not afraid to voice his opinion on matters he feels are wrong. When I was Area 5 director I heard from Roy on occasion and while we did not always agree, I respected his views.

Feeling that something is wrong with our sport and just saying "oh well" will only lead to bad results.

Agreed Gary! While Roy is best taken in small doses sometimes:) you can't really talk Michigan USPSA without involving Roy in the conversation.

He knows the game and the people in it and is not afraid to tell it like it is.

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Well I saw a video of the prone stage it was changed from the IPSC Nationals, and now there are steel in the area you have to shoot prone.

We also shoot "Not Today" and "Illinois Star" at my local club today. They were quite fun, I can't wait to shoot them for real this week.

Edited by PPGMD
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I shot IPSC, am shooting Nationals, stages aren't the same, they have been changed.

Oh one thing I realized after thinking about it a bit.

Even if the prone stage hadn't been changed from the IPSC Nationals, simply by shooting it under the USPSA rule set would've have changed the nature of the stage. At IPSC any descent stage plan would results in the prone bit in the middle of your stage. But because you can cross the non-shooting area in USPSA you can have a good stage plan that includes the prone at the end.

Same with that step through the port stage, because of my leg I might just run around and shoot the hallway back to front.

Edited by PPGMD
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I shot IPSC, am shooting Nationals, stages aren't the same, they have been changed.

Oh one thing I realized after thinking about it a bit.

Even if the prone stage hadn't been changed from the IPSC Nationals, simply by shooting it under the USPSA rule set would've have changed the nature of the stage. At IPSC any descent stage plan would results in the prone bit in the middle of your stage. But because you can cross the non-shooting area in USPSA you can have a good stage plan that includes the prone at the end.

Same with that step through the port stage, because of my leg I might just run around and shoot the hallway back to front.

I looked at running it that way, seemed like it would not save me anytime, plus would be real hard for the R.O. not to get outrun by me and he is stuck in no man's land waiting for me to come back to him.

It is a trip hazard, I was pretty slow going through the port, I don't want to trip or bash my head.

Crossing outside the shooting area is a costly mistake in that stage in IPSC.

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Way to go Smitty. Our sport is not about testing athletic endurance. It's about accuracy, power, and speed. Sure, the props are nice but there are a lot of older shooters who have difficulty climbing, running arround obstacles, and doing all this other stuff that has nothing to do with testing shooter ability.

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Point being, for the $$ ....I want new stages and I want to be impressed. This is the US Nationals for crying out loud. Pretty sad when some Sectional and Area matches make this one look like crap. This is supposed to be the premier match of the year. So why are we settling on this? Don't you guys remember when Area 2 had such creative stages and props that you felt you just had to try and go there at least once to experience it in person? I know I did.........Dave Miller used to run a very interesting match at Topton,, Summer Blast by Larry Houck was always entertaining. Last year in Utah was 28 field courses that were nicely done-yes there were a couple of stand and shoots but nothing like the depths of this....................If I saw many of these stages at a level I match in my area, I would ask the Match Director if it was due to lack of help and I would try to be understanding. Not for this type of match. With the talent that is available at this facility, this is a highway robbery of USPSA members. Extreme difficulty such as 25 yard plates strong hand only do not make up for the lack of creativity that goes into stage design. If the stages are as they seem from the paper outlines, then USPSA deserves to see it's membership decline and folks not want to go back to Florida for another match. The membership deserves so much better as this is typical of an organization not serving it members/clients. Do this in the business world and you don't stay in business very long.

I can only hope that I am proved wrong. We are USPSA.......not IPSC. If I want to shoot an IPSC match, I will go to one. This is where we can show the rest of the world where we have it better by not having to do 3,2,1 on the stage matrix. We are 'Mericans"!!!! Let's start acting like it....Other shooters travel here to get away from the IPSC matches. Big field courses with challenging shots and lots of interesting props/platforms are what we are known for. It's not like the match venue didn't know this was coming and just started planning last month. They had a year to get ready...I had less than that to pull off 18 stages and 504 rounds for my major match this year where I had many folks ask me when I was planning on hosting a Nationals level event. So I am not saying this to complain without knowing about the time and effort it takes to pull one of these off. Frank/Manny/Shannon.......please don't let us down..............Petition to change some of the stages-no one has shot them yet so why can't these get adjusted? (wouldn't that be nice...). If Universal's defense-who decided that these would be a good idea to shoot at USPSA? NROI looks at them to make sure they fit within the rules but who actually goes over these for quality? If no one does, then why not?

What if shooters decided to boycott some of the stages as a way of protest for the lack of quality? It would have to come from the top shooters as they would have to set the example but wouldn't that be interesting?

Nationals cannot have iffy stages. Circus stages that have the potential to fail or even cause reshoots are absolutely out. Stages with the potential of subjective calls are out.

Nationals is about shooting and the execution of skills. It needs a variety of short, medium and long stages to compare different competitors skill sets across the board. You may do well on the long field courses and fall short on the short stages. You may be a quick draw but not have a good break down of long stages. It's the competitor that passes the test on all skill levels.

I think the stages were challenging, fair, solid and covered the many skill levels of a National Champion.

I think other things were missing but the stages were good. The pomp and circumstance were missing. USPSA as an organization put very little in the promotion side. Very few vendors, very little social effect and very little USPSA 'showcase' effort. I had several people say it didn't 'feel' like a National event. It's time for USPSA to put a significant part of the 2 million income into the Nationals.

So it's your turn. Did you volunteer at the match, did you send in suggestions or are you just complaining?

Remember, if you complain about volunteers and the job they do, be prepared to do the job yourself.

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