JupiterAdam Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 2015 USPSA Handgun (Limited/Open) Nationals Stages Has anyone else noticed that 10 of the stages for the 2015 USPSA Handgun (Limited/Open) Nationals are exact repeats or very close reproductions of stages from either the USPSA Production Nationals held in August 2015 or the US IPSC Nationals held in September 2015. The stage breakdown is as follows: 2015 USPSA Handgun (Limited/Open) Nationals Stage 2 = US IPSC Nationals Stage 1 2015 USPSA Handgun (Limited/Open) Nationals Stage 7 = US IPSC Nationals Stage 7 2015 USPSA Handgun (Limited/Open) Nationals Stage 9 = US IPSC Nationals Stage 9 2015 USPSA Handgun (Limited/Open) Nationals Stage 10 = US IPSC Nationals Stage 13 2015 USPSA Handgun (Limited/Open) Nationals Stage 12 = USPSA Production Nationals Stage 12 2015 USPSA Handgun (Limited/Open) Nationals Stage 14 = US IPSC Nationals Stage 13 2015 USPSA Handgun (Limited/Open) Nationals Stage 15 = USPSA Production Nationals Stage 16 2015 USPSA Handgun (Limited/Open) Nationals Stage 16 = USPSA Production Nationals Stage 14 2015 USPSA Handgun (Limited/Open) Nationals Stage 18 = US IPSC Nationals Stage 14 2015 USPSA Handgun (Limited/Open) Nationals Stage 19 = US IPSC Nationals Stage 15 I feel a bit disappointed that our national organization did not come up with unique stages for this premier annual event. It would seem that if one shot the US IPSC Nationals, that shooter would be ahead of the game on seven stages (1/3 of the match) and leaves me with the feeling that there exists an imbalance of competitive equity in the match. Is this typical of the nationals? Is there some history or context that this should be put in? I invite any other views or input. Just to be clear, I am overjoyed at the prospect of shooting the Nationals this year (I won an earned slot in my section lottery), especially since it is at one of my home ranges, which I consider one of the best in the country. Thanks, Adam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 The three from Production Nationals are most likely new classifiers that will be seeded with HHFs from all the divisions at each Nationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaterHead Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I am pretty sure that 15 and 16 were used in the 2007 (?) Nationals in Tulsa. Seems like George Jones was running both stages, and each shooter stayed hot and did both. Don't know why or how I remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 All stages have elements that are used repetitively. A zones are chest high 90% of the time. Stages get repeated over the years, but actual target placement is often subtly different. I wouldn't worry about it too much, there is no way to quantify what you are asking. I don't think it makes much difference. SS Nationals is held every year at the same place, so if you've never shot there, you might not know it's always going to rain, etc. But you know, if you're at a certain level, it's not going to make much difference in the overall scheme of things. An A shooter is not going to win the match no matter how times they shoot the stages. Shoot and have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROY NEAL Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Point being, for the $$ ....I want new stages and I want to be impressed. This is the US Nationals for crying out loud. Pretty sad when some Sectional and Area matches make this one look like crap. This is supposed to be the premier match of the year. So why are we settling on this? Don't you guys remember when Area 2 had such creative stages and props that you felt you just had to try and go there at least once to experience it in person? I know I did.........Dave Miller used to run a very interesting match at Topton,, Summer Blast by Larry Houck was always entertaining. Last year in Utah was 28 field courses that were nicely done-yes there were a couple of stand and shoots but nothing like the depths of this....................If I saw many of these stages at a level I match in my area, I would ask the Match Director if it was due to lack of help and I would try to be understanding. Not for this type of match. With the talent that is available at this facility, this is a highway robbery of USPSA members. Extreme difficulty such as 25 yard plates strong hand only do not make up for the lack of creativity that goes into stage design. If the stages are as they seem from the paper outlines, then USPSA deserves to see it's membership decline and folks not want to go back to Florida for another match. The membership deserves so much better as this is typical of an organization not serving it members/clients. Do this in the business world and you don't stay in business very long. I can only hope that I am proved wrong. We are USPSA.......not IPSC. If I want to shoot an IPSC match, I will go to one. This is where we can show the rest of the world where we have it better by not having to do 3,2,1 on the stage matrix. We are 'Mericans"!!!! Let's start acting like it....Other shooters travel here to get away from the IPSC matches. Big field courses with challenging shots and lots of interesting props/platforms are what we are known for. It's not like the match venue didn't know this was coming and just started planning last month. They had a year to get ready...I had less than that to pull off 18 stages and 504 rounds for my major match this year where I had many folks ask me when I was planning on hosting a Nationals level event. So I am not saying this to complain without knowing about the time and effort it takes to pull one of these off. Frank/Manny/Shannon.......please don't let us down..............Petition to change some of the stages-no one has shot them yet so why can't these get adjusted? (wouldn't that be nice...). If Universal's defense-who decided that these would be a good idea to shoot at USPSA? NROI looks at them to make sure they fit within the rules but who actually goes over these for quality? If no one does, then why not? What if shooters decided to boycott some of the stages as a way of protest for the lack of quality? It would have to come from the top shooters as they would have to set the example but wouldn't that be interesting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 (edited) Nicely put Roy! Rest assured MF will fix this in the future. Edited September 22, 2015 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Roy, no one has even looked at these stages for real yet, not set up. Paper stuff. And USA doesn't run the match. USPSA rents the range from them. I like the facility a lot. Very safe. Nice clean facilities. Ammo available. Cover for rain and or sun. Really good steel and props and walls. You are commenting before the fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROY NEAL Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Thank you Kevin...............my suggestion to Mr. Foley is that he put this out there as a campaign issue..........Manny works where this debacle is occurring. That means it is happening under his watch....not something I would want to be associated with if I were looking to get votes from folks who are going to attend. For the $2000+ I am having to fork out to attend this, I bet you can see why I am not so happy............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Thank you Kevin...............my suggestion to Mr. Foley is that he put this out there as a campaign issue..........Manny works where this debacle is occurring. That means it is happening under his watch....not something I would want to be associated with if I were looking to get votes from folks who are going to attend. For the $2000+ I am having to fork out to attend this, I bet you can see why I am not so happy............. Perfectly clear to me my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROY NEAL Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I have made no remarks on the facility and its amenities................only the stages and the lack of impressing me and many others who I have talked to. Please do not comment on something I didn't say or write. I do not take kindly to that as I am sure you wouldn't either.....I reserve the right to comment on the facility and its amenities till after the event. A 12 round Virginia count stage with 2 targets on it is hard to "dress up" to look any better than it is. In our area, we call stages such as this "throw in stages". As in the match director threw in the towel and due to some circumstances didn't put much effort into that stage. At a level I, we might put up with this once............but this should never be tolerated at a Nationals level event. An 8 round field course with two paper targets and a plate rack with 3 plates at 25 yards strong hand only is not a stage anyone really wants to shoot. No one looks at that and says " I just have to go and shoot that stage at that facility". And therein lies the problem.......The facility came up with the stages and is getting paid to host the event. So the question still remains-who thought that these stage designs were the best that could be done for us and approved them for use? Not legality (NROI does that) but thought that these stages were going to excite folks about coming to this match? Is anyone really excited about these? As in the same level of excitement that they had for attending Area 2 when they had the mine cart, the fireman pole stage, the huey stages or the zombie graveyard stage all in the same year? A couple of years ago in New Brunswick, the Canadian Nationals had a 30 foot boat and dock on a stage, 3 18 wheeler trailers, a real school bus to shoot out of and they built a passenger plane and APC's &Tanks to shoot in plus many other cool props. That is what I am talking about. They don't all have to be something so prop intensive but wouldn't some bling be nice? There are only 10-12 folks really in contention for winning each Division (if that...) so it's not about the top pro's. It's about your customer base. You know, the folks that pay the majority of the bills of our sport. They don't want to shoot small static courses. This is their vacation where they are going to show this off to their friends and family/coworkers. We have the ability to make this a big spectacle with great props-so why don't we demand that of any range hosting the event? I always tell my staff this before every event..."We can screw the pooch on just about everything as long as we apologize and make the effort to do better and shooters will forgive us.........but we can't screw up and put on crappy stages. They won't tolerate it and will vote with their feet and pocketbooks by not coming back." My club is just a regular shooting club here in the Midwest but we get folks that drive 5-6 hours from another country to shoot our matches on a monthly basis because we do try to live up to that idea. My wish is that the Nationals did too. Let us hope and pray that something gets changed before the event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 (edited) Jadeslade, I do not agree with your statement that "no one has even looked at these stages for real yet, not set up". I can bet you that more than one person who attended the IPSC nationals and who will attend the US Nats, will be very familiar with the stage layout including field obstacles. Edited September 22, 2015 by Big Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Maybe the club is worried they won't get paid for hosting the match and doesn't want to be out a ton of money if that happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWLAZS Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I was wondering how close these stages would be to the IPSC nationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Yes, IPSC Nationals was just overwhelmingly attended. I was going to shoot it, just ran out of gas. But I lead the nation in match fees eaten anyway. Are you coming to set-up? You really think the stages will be left as is? As for the comments about Area 2, which used to be held in the fall and was considered the best match every year for a while-you could expect the same bays, the same type of speed shoots in the bays and the gradual dumbing down of the jungle runs etc. But it's not the premier match in the country any more. But that really has no reference to this year's Nationals. I can see your point about 2,000 bucks and all that and what you expect for that, but I am not sure why you equate that with this years Nationals. If you think the match sucks after you shoot it and that's the consensus, I'll probably be with you. But making all this negative commenting before the match, based on paper stages, does no service to anyone. It will turn off relative newcomers and isn't really necessary, is it? I don't know why you feel you represent "the rank and file" "customer". Only kings and people with tapeworms should say we. It's not like stages have never been repeated at Nationals before. There are always complaints-the wind in Vegas, the mud bowls in Tulsa, etc. If you really want a vacation, take the 2,000 and spend a week in Anguilla. This is a shooting competition. I like speed shoots. We call them speed shoots for a reason. I call them Jesse James stages. Speed. I hope the match is better than you expect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPGMD Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I was wondering how close these stages would be to the IPSC nationals. Only the first couple of the IPSC stages look really similar to the USPSA stages. The rest have elements that are that are the same. But on paper they look different from each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan626 Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 So did anyone complained to Phil or someone at HQ? Area director? I would gladly sign a petition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan626 Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 6 stages with 12 rds or less! 6! That is not Nationals stage quality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trent1k1 Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 I'm positive that the Nationals Match Director is the USPSA President. He and only he is responsible for the stage designs. If he ( or Kim) delegated that it doesn't matter. It is the ultimate responsibility of the President to be the MD for Nationals per the bylaws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg1005 Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 6 stages with 12 rds or less! 6! That is not Nationals stage quality Ummm... yeah it is. Nationals needs to have speed shoots/short course. It makes for a far more challenging match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadyscott999 Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 6 stages with 12 rds or less! 6! That is not Nationals stage quality What? So only round count determines stage quality? That is absurd. I will expect to see Ryan X as winning all the speed shoots this year. Cool? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan626 Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 I get it but what I said in the other topic is since this is Limited & Open Nats, couldnt they have added 1 or 2 more target without adding another position so that it matches the capacity of the div. so that when u screw up, you would have to do a reload. Im not gonna worry about the L10 guys Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg1005 Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 I get it but what I said in the other topic is since this is Limited & Open Nats, couldnt they have added 1 or 2 more target without adding another position so that it matches the capacity of the div. so that when u screw up, you would have to do a reload. Im not gonna worry about the L10 guys Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk That would make for an illegal stage... at nationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 1.1.4 Diversity – USPSA shooting challenges are diverse. While it is not necessary to construct new courses for each match, no single course of fire must be repeated to allow its use to be considered a definitive measure of USPSA shooting skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan626 Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 Yes my taste tends to lean to the high round count since this is a high round count divisions. Who cares about L10! Lol Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg1005 Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 What if shooters decided to boycott some of the stages as a way of protest for the lack of quality? It would have to come from the top shooters as they would have to set the example but wouldn't that be interesting? For the $2000+ I am having to fork out to attend this, I bet you can see why I am not so happy............. So I take it that you'll boycott stages, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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