MGM Spinner and slugs at 40 yards. Gun it or run it?

[jon49erfan]

You dont need hotter ammo to finish it. It can be done with low recoil slugs, but you have to really take your time on it and make all your hits count.

[Stlhead]

I also use 7/8 ounce lady slugs. Hit the top plate, then the bottom, over it goes, two consecutive good hits does the job. With man slugs you can have a miss between hits and get it over in two. Man slugs are not required, hitting the target is what is required. Lots of people where not able to spin them with full power slugs.

An example would be stage 6, you shot your rifle and then shot slugs, there where 2 slug gongs at around 65 yards and a slug spinner at the same distance. There was a barricade to shoot from, or a dump box, or you could stand up and shoot them like a man. While I only had a limited sample of shooters to watch, those that shot the spinner first and from the dump box where more effective, while those that shot from the baicade and or shot the gongs first had more trouble. The top 30 shooters overall from all divisions all spun the slug spinner, only 11 shooters from the remaining 83 where able to get it over (the 11 is based on the shooters not having at least 60 seconds of penalties as well as the post from jon49erfan, and could be possible for other shooters to have gotten more than 60 seconds in penalties without the failure to spin). It is a true chicken or egg question, are top shooters just able to spin it, or does being able to spin it make you a top shooter?

I find the little details of our sport fascinating. I would love to collect data on how different shooters approached stages differently and analyze it to determine trends and patterns. How cool would it be to go back through the time stamped video of stage runs to determine the best shooting positions and order of engagements. To be able to determine what behaviors and decisions contributed to the success and failures of the competitors.

Edited June 11, 2015 by Stlhead

[jon49erfan]

The top 30 shooters overall from all divisions all spun the slug spinner, only 10 shooters from the remaining 83 where able to get it over. It is a true chicken or egg question, are top shooters just able to spin it, or does being able to spin it make you a top shooter?

I think your calculations on who did and didnt spin it are flawed. I spun it. I finished right in the middle. But I caught 60 sec worth of other penalties because I'm clearly not a top shooter.

[Stlhead]

Good point, I will edit my post.

[openclassterror]

I kind of had a love/ hate with the slug spinners at ironman this year. Had no trouble with rifle spinners using 77s, or pistol spinners using 95s (!). I shoot 1oz, 1300fps low recoil slugs. Unfortunately I grew dependent on my red dot, and it crapped out during our first stage (stage 6), which had a slug spinner. I wasted 6 slugs trying to hit it with the dot traversing back and forth across the glass every shot. Had the same trouble on stage 8. Two 60 sec penalties the first day. I finally regained a feel for shooting slugs off the barrel bead after the first day's shooting was over and I went to the practice range. After that, no more trouble. But, those two penalties probably cost me a couple places in the match. Would have been maybe 13th in open instead of 15th. Was it the target's fault? NO. They are very challenging, and will definitely show you weaknesses in your training. But, that IS what separates the good shooters from the rest of us.

[Flatland Shooter]

I've not had the fine opportunity to shoot Ironman so my hate/hate relationship is spinners at the local level.

My first experience with spinners was not good. Slightly rusty and in much need of grease, we were the first stage to shoot the spinner that day. It was any size birdshot you brung on a target less than 12 yards away. I believe only two or three out of a squad of twelve managed to get it to swing. Those were the folks that just happened to have a box of Praire Storm shells in their range bags. Later squads that day had better luck (maybe someone had some motor oil with them) but for us it was too late.

Since then I've had the opportunity to shoot well maintained spinners and they are fun to shoot.

But I still have a problem with stages where competitors can get such a huge advantage with ammo rather than shooting skill. Who is the better shooter? The one that swings the spinner with two or three well placed low recoil shots or the one that turns it into a high speed windmill with one shot?

Bill

[openclassterror]

The same argument could be made for long steel. A guy with a 6.5 Grendel, or 77s in his 5.56 has a significant advantage over a guy with 55gr .223 loads at 400 yds in a real blow. Does it take more skill to hit that target with the 55s? ABSOLUTELY. He is the better shooter, if they both go 1 for 1. But one guy spent hours on the practice range learning to shoot light bullets in the wind. The other guy spent hours in his shooting library noting the ballistics of various cartridge/ ammo combinations. Getting there either way takes work. One was white collar, one was blue collar. Just depends where you want to focus your effort.

[TonytheTiger]

It's all just part of the fun of 3 gun. As long as everyone's playing by the same rules I think it's great that people can pick and choose how they want to balance skill vs. equipment on any given stage. No one way is wrong or right, all that matters is what the timer says.

[Flatland Shooter]

After a good night's sleep, I've rethought my position and now fully agree with openclassterror and TonytheTiger.

Bill

[BitchinCamaro]

The big 2 day "state" match was last weekend, and there were spinners galore. My first stage had a similar setup as my first post- a shotgun stage (after a rifle string) that began with slugs on steel torsos at 40 yards, a 30 second bonus slug spinner (60 second penalty if not spun by the end of the stage), followed by 20 or so KO steel and aerial clays.

The first 4 guys before me didn't get the spinner over with slugs. I loaded up 2 rio low recoil for the plate, and 2 Rem Slugger full velocity 1oz green shells for the spinner. Instead of going prone, I used a vision barrier for support. I sent the 2 rio to the plate with no issues. The first 1oz slug missed the lower spinner plate high and left. I took a breath, got my sight picture, and sent the second slugger dead center into the bottom plate- straight center punched it!

The bottom plate swung back about a foot, and that was it. My mind completely blanked as visions of youtube spinners whirling around dissolved into white noise.

I began reaching for another slug but decided against it since I had already burned the backup slug in the tube and had birdshot in the chamber (I was shooting factory, so my shot count was critical). I completed the rest of the stage a little frantically but clean, and ran up to the spinner and got it over in 2 (pocket loadout) birdshot loads like the last time.

There were quite a few shooters that arrived fresh from their recovery from Ironman, and there were plenty of grumbles from that crowd about how that particular spinner was sticky/loose/possessed. Overall ~23 of 93 shooters got the bonus. 14 of the top 15 got it over.

I was ROing a different stage, and when I found some down time I watched the pro/semi-pro squads shoot that bonus spinner. No one I saw got it over in 2 slugs. 3 was the minimum. I have no idea what they were using for loads. Even with misses and light hits, they were all committed to the bonus where I gave up and started running to complete the rest of the stage.

I think I'm going to get a third taccom duelin' duces (holds 8) anyway, so when stages start with a slug bonus I can load a tube with an adequate number of slugs to ensure the bonus, then clear them and load the full course of birdshot loads as I move from the slug box.

Edited July 1, 2015 by BitchinCamaro

[Stlhead]

If the bolts on the spinner where loose then what you had was a broken target. They need to be tight for all shooters.

[BitchinCamaro]

If the bolts on the spinner where loose then what you had was a broken target. They need to be tight for all shooters.

They were tight and were checked and re-checked many times throughout the match (both by schedule, and by shooter request). Squads were just speculating.

Edited June 29, 2015 by BitchinCamaro

[The Donald]

If the bolts on the spinner where loose then what you had was a broken target. They need to be tight for all shooters.

They were tight and were checked and re-checked many times throughout the match (both by schedule, and by shooter request). Squads were just speculating.

Was it the MGM spinner or the MOA? I have an MOA and have no problem spinning it in one shot with a full power slug if I do my part and hit it square on. I've shot MGM's with turkey loads and they spin like no tomorrow.

Wonder if the spinner was rusty and lacking lube?

[BitchinCamaro]

It was probably an older MGM though I can't be sure.

It had the spinner plates bolted onto the center section and there were no obvious lateral adjustments - i.e. bearing preload nuts or whatnot.

It was lubed and tested prior to the match. The weird thing was that it spun easily by hand with no grittiness, and 2 bulkpack birdshot loads got it over for most shooters that didn't bonus it. It was just the nature of that beast to laugh off slugs for the match.

[dogtired]

That was a fun stage. It was the other spinners that embarrassed me. I bought a box of pheasant loads on the way home.

Looking at the scores, I was in the low 30's on that stage and I opted to run to the end and spin it. I was not confident on enough slug hits to actually gain from the 30 second bonus, so opted to run up. I shot my last shell to spin it...

Here is someone else shooting the stage, not shooting spinner: Spinner at 1:20

This one at 0:58, spinning it at 40 yds.

Edited July 6, 2015 by dogtired

[dogtired]

The top 30 shooters overall from all divisions all spun the slug spinner, only 10 shooters from the remaining 83 where able to get it over. It is a true chicken or egg question, are top shooters just able to spin it, or does being able to spin it make you a top shooter?

19 of the top 30 spun it. 4 over the top 30.

[ambluemax]

For 60 second, I would have made it happen. Slugs are the easiest to spin the spinner with if you actually hit them. 2 hits easy. Its rifle spinners that suck.

[dogtired]

In retrospect, my buddy hit it twice with slugs and had it at the top requiring one more tap and had no extra slugs. He regretted that. He would have moved up quite a few places. He was in the top 25 on that stage and spinning it would have moved him up 10-15 places.

Looking at the overall, if we had both spun it, given the full 60 seconds bonus and not adding time for additional shots, we would have both moved up 4 places.

Edited July 27, 2015 by dogtired

[kurtm]

Ahhh...I get it! Your not shooting 3-gun, your shooting "IF"SC . Kinda like if I hadn't of lost the last 3-gun match I shot, I would have won. We either learn or we IF, hard to do both! Now where is that little green guy with the joint?

[openclassterror]

In our local match this month, I put together a spinner test stage. It went like this: Don't spin the spinner at all, 60 sec penalty. Can be engaged with rifle from 100 yds, slugs from VTAC wall at 70, birdshot at 20, pistol at 15. Spin it once with any of the four choices for zero penalty. For each additional engagement that resulted in a spin, 30 second bonus. Out of 18 shooters, maybe 6 attempted the slugs. Of those six, two shooters hit it once, but failed to spin it with subsequent shots. About 3/4 attempted the Rifle, and 6 spun it. Nearly everyone spun it with the birdshot, and all but two spun it with the pistol. There were additional targets for all three guns to make it a real stage, and most importantly there were a few mandatory pistol targets that had to be engaged after dumping the shotgun but before re-engaging the spinner. This was to keep people from blasting the hell out of it with birdshot, then popping off one or two pistol rounds while it was still spinning for a gimme bonus. Here was how it worked for me:

Rifle: I had 77gr bullets, which I know from past experience will spin it in 10 hits or less if I don't miss. Well, I couldn't get on top of my timing, and I was breaking the trigger when the bullets needed to already be there. 4 misses interspersed with 12 not always optimal hits took 32 sec. So, I avoided the 60 sec penalty, but didn't make money against the bonus time.

Shotgun Slugs: Still haven't replaced the red-dot I broke at Ironman, so my confidence was low. Took 3 shots in about 4 sec, never hit the bottom plate, cut my losses. Again, lost money against the bonus, but had the sense not to let it bleed me dry.

Shotgun Birdshot: Topped up between knockdowns on my way up to the fault line, got there with 5 rounds in the gun. ( we are limited to #7-1/2 shot, 1300fps max at our range). Hit, Miss, Poor Hit, Good Hit, then drove it over the top with my last shot instead of waiting an extra second to watch and see if it was gonna stall or go over, dumped empty shotgun. Total 6 seconds, so I made good money on that bonus.

Pistol: Engaged the two mandatory 50 yard steel plates, then double tap on the lower paddle, shoot two nearby steel, one on the top, shoot one nearby steel, two on the bottom again, two nearby steel, drive it over with two to the top, and shoot the last standing steel as the RO calls it spun. Total engagement time was 9 seconds, but I got 5 other targets while I waited on the timing. So really, it only cost me maybe 4-5 additional seconds over engaging the surrounding steel.

Net result, 60 seconds in bonuses, a 60 second penalty averted, for a cost of 51 seconds of clock time. Net gain of -9 seconds (from zero)

Had I skipped all but my fastest engagement (6 seconds on the birdshot) I would have averted the 60 second penalty, and had no bonuses, for a cost of 6 seconds of clock time. Net loss of 6 seconds (from zero)

Total difference in final time was only 15 seconds. One could argue that the gap would have been even smaller had I skipped the additional engagements, as I wouldn't have lost time decelerating/accelerating from the shooting positions, slowing while topping off the shotgun, Etc. So, in reality, at my skill level and equipment condition, and the bonus values, it was dang near a wash. BUT!!!!! I GUARANTEE YOU I had a hell of a lot more fun on that stage than the guys that skipped half the opportunities, and gained useful practice and information as well.

(edited because I can't spell after midnight )

Edited July 28, 2015 by openclassterror

[AFguywhoshoots]

So I worked stage 6 at this years Ironman during the OLHOT match. That one had the spinner that ate most of the people's lunch. When Daniel Horner is yelling for more slugs, you know it went south. Aside from the super squad, the average spin rate was around 10% for a squad. There were a few squads that had better showing, but not many. The thing that made that spinner so difficult was it was set on an off angle. I shot the whole entire match using low recoil B&P slugs at 1200 FPs. I used exactly 100 slugs for the whole match and spun every spinner. The key is getting the hits. If you have to focus on bottom plate hits, take your time and make them count.

[BitchinCamaro]

Ahhh...I get it! ... We either learn or we IF, hard to do both!

[kurtm]

Man I look young in that picture!

[dogtired]

Ahhh...I get it! Your not shooting 3-gun, your shooting "IF"SC . Kinda like if I hadn't of lost the last 3-gun match I shot, I would have won. We either learn or we IF, hard to do both! Now where is that little green guy with the joint?

I was inarticulate in trying to say a similar thing as OpenClassTerror. Something similar to this statement: "Net result, 60 seconds in bonuses, a 60 second penalty averted, for a cost of 51 seconds of clock time. Net gain of -9 seconds (from zero)"

If it took no time to spin it then we both would have benefitted greatly, but in reality it did not effect my score cause I stink (actually my plan worked out because I did OK on this one), but my friend would have benefited from one more slug on bonus. On two of the other stages, I would have benefited greatly by engaging the rifle spinner once, and taken the 60 second penalty. On another, if I had not dropped those two shotshells...

If that stage had gone perfectly, assuming everyone else did not have their Genie in the bottle, then only a 4 place advancement. English is my second language. Guttural grunting is first.

Edited July 30, 2015 by dogtired

[Alaskapopo]

Isnt that the truth. I started out trying to spin it with the normal 7/8oz 1300fps Fiocchi I normally use. It killed me. I switched over to 1oz 1600fps Winchester deer hunting slugs and didnt have a problem the rest of the match.

That kind of begs the question, how fair is a stage that essentially requires you use hotter ammo just to complete a stage?

Thats the game and its fair because anyone can buy said hotter ammo.