Updates to IMA-SMM3G Rules - NEW Stealth Division

[StealthyBlagga]

The IMA-SMM3G team has made some PROVISIONAL changes to equipment division rules. These changes are being beta-tested during Rio Salado's monthly 3-Gun matches between now and the end of 2015. If deemed successful, they will be featured in SMM3G 2016. This information has been mentioned in another discussion thread, but I thought it would be more informative if I posted the FULL division rules as currently written, and start a thread for each division impacted.

First, the good news: There are no significant changes to Open, Tactical or Limited divisions.

There are some significant changes to the Heavy Metal divisions (see THIS THREAD)

In this thread, I want to present a brand new equipment division called Stealth Division, and why we have created it.

Firstly, the "why". Currently, 3-Gun participation is dominated by the Tactical/Tactical Scope/Tactical Optics division. New participants gravitate naturally to a division in which the guns are relatively cost-effective, reliable, and "relevant", but in which a scope can be used to make long-range rifle shooting easier. T/TS/TO presents the opportunity to do interesting things with equipment, without needing the deep pockets and inexhaustible patience that is the hallmark of Open Division participation.

The "problem" from a match organizer's perspective is that T/TS/TO is becoming bloated. New/less talented participants stand almost no chance of placing well, which can be disheartening. At major matches, the T/TS/TO prize table can take forever to get done... certainly an incentive to shoot well and place high, but this does lead to customer dissatisfaction, missed flights etc.

The "problem" from the real-world perspective is that T/TS/TO equipment is fast deviating from the practical equipment being used outside of the 3-Gun world. Expensive 1-6x/1-8x rifle scopes, ludicrously long shotgun magazine tubes... much of this makes little sense in the real-world.

Rather than monkey with what is otherwise a very successful and popular division, we decided to create a completely new division that is readily accessible to T/TS/TO shooters, and at the same time encourages the use of real-world equipment. Stealth Division is designed to fall between the Open and Tactical divisions. An existing Tactical Division shooter should be competitive in Stealth Division with little or no equipment changes, but the rules allow certain practical upgrades/innovations to be explored. Here are the rules:

5.3 Stealth Division

5.3.1 Handgun

5.3.1.1 The handgun holster must safely retain the handgun during vigorous movement. A semiautomatic pistol holster

must completely cover the trigger, and must cover the slide up to ½” below the ejection port. A revolver holster

must completely cover the trigger and the cylinder. The belt upon which the holster is attached must be worn at

waist level. Shoulder holsters, cross draw holsters and “race” holsters are prohibited.

5.3.1.2 The handgun in its ready condition, with magazine inserted and all accessories attached, must fit in a box of

interior dimensions 225mm x 175mm x 50mm (tolerance +2mm, -0mm). All magazines must comply.

5.3.2 Rifle

5.3.2.1 Maximum magazine capacity is thirty one (31) rounds. Compliant magazines may be coupled together provided

such coupling does not increase the capacity of any magazine. Magazines may be loaded with not more than

thirty (30) rounds at the start signal.

5.3.2.2 Supporting devices (e.g. bipods), if used, must be installed for every stage of the event, but may start a stage

folded or deployed at the participant’s discretion.

5.3.3 Shotgun

5.3.3.1 Only a tubular magazine is permitted, and its length may not exceed 23” measured from the front of the

receiver. Speed loading devices are prohibited.

5.3.3.2 Supporting devices (bipods, etc.) are prohibited.

I will post some additional narrative about this division. In the meantime, I want to emphasize that this division is provisional, and we welcome feedback and ideas on how we can tweak the rules further. Please post your questions and suggestions here.

Edited May 11, 2015 by StealthyBlagga

[StealthyBlagga]

Handgun

The holster rule is identical to that for Tactical, Limited and HM.

The intent of the “box” rule is to give competitors the freedom to explore different technologies, to find what works best for them, but with a size constraint to ensure the handgun does not become impractical.

The box fit test is performed with an empty magazine inserted in the handgun, and all magazines to be used in the match must comply. The box dimensions are substantially larger than the USPSA or IPSC box, allowing for the 140mm magazines that are pretty much standard in our sport.The photos below show some typical pistols and how they fit in the box.

Edited May 11, 2015 by StealthyBlagga

[StealthyBlagga]

Rifle

The intent of the rifle magazine restriction is to limit each magazine to 30 rounds loaded at start. Rather than the RO having to count rounds fired, the rule restricts the physical capacity of the magazine to 31 rounds (many GI 30-round mags will accept 31, albeit not reliably). If we can squeeze 32 rounds into your magazine, it is illegal. Regardless of capacity, only a maximum of 30 rounds can be loaded at start. Coupled magazines are OK.

Rifle bipods are legal in Stealth Division, but any bipod you use must stay on the rifle for the entire match… a bipod that helps your accuracy on long-range targets may hinder your speed on close-range hoser stages. The choice is yours.

There are no other restrictions, so your rifle can be configured much like an Open Division rifle, including multiple optics. This configuration is becoming quite common in the military/LE world. The photo below, taken at this weekend’s Rio Salado 3-Gun match, shows two rifles that are both Open- and Stealth-legal.

Shotgun

The length of the magazine tube is restricted to 23”, measured from the front edge of the receiver. This harks back to the original SOF rule (max 22" barrel, mag tube protruding no more than 1" past muzzle), but allows the many competitors with barrels longer or shorter than 22" to still be competitive without having to buy a new barrel/gun. The photo below shows how to measure your magazine tube; this factory standard Remington Versa Max Tactical complies comfortably with its 21½”-long 8-shot magazine tube.

So long as the magazine tube complies with the length limitation, the gun can start the stage with as many rounds as you can fit in it (short shells, ghost load etc.). The Versa Max Tactical shown above can start the stage with 10 rounds loaded (8 in the tube + 1 in the chamber + 1 “ghost load” on the carrier). Speed loaders are prohibited. Bipods are prohibited on the shotgun. Otherwise, use whatever modifications work for you (optics, porting etc.).

Edited May 11, 2015 by StealthyBlagga

[El Guapo]

I really like the ideas for this stealth division. I hope it catches on.

[co-exprs]

I can't lie, the Stealth division looks kinda cool!

[gunther]

I like it. "Heavy Stealth" I might like more.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gooldylocks]

I am not a 3 gun shooter (at this point in my life) but this divison sounds fun. The pistol box keeping "the guns practical" makes me wonder though, especially since it is bigger than the normal box. Are IPSC modified guns going to come back into vogue, utilizing every square inch of box available? Is that the intent, or an unintended consequence?

[gose]

So basically Open rifle, Modified shotgun and Modified pistol?

Cost is going to be pretty close to Open and if you want to go cheap, you'll be about as handicapped in this division as you would in Open. I usually hear cost as one of the main deterrents of Open and if this new division is going to be almost at expensive it's going to scare some away.

The bipod rule would annoy me a little bit as well, since I often fly to matches and might not have time to walk all stages before the match starts and spread it out over the days. Now I'd have to come early to check out all stages to see whether to use a bipod or not, or potentially give away an advantage (albeit probably not a big one) to the locals and early arrivals.

And I'm not sure I'd agree that Modified pistol are any less practical then "real" Open guns, but you know Modified way better than I do

[Steve RA]

Rifle rules seem somewhat similar to what they were when USPSA started into 3 gun.

[Lead-Head]

So it is tac ops with a bipod option on rifle, 30 round rifle mags, handgun size box, and length limit on SG tube.

[gose]

After thinking about it some more today, I'd argue that if you want to slim TO, you'd be better off doing it on the "lower" side of TO rather than the upper side, eg

TO rifle, but one optic, 1-4x max, 31 rounds loaded max

USPSA production pistol, 16 rounds loaded (because 10 is stupid)

TO "standard" shotgun, but 9 rounds loaded max.

I guess something similar to 3GN production, but i can't be bothered to look up their rules

This would be much cheaper, match a larger number of competitor equipment and probably draw more beginner/mid-level competitors.

IMHO, I think the sport would benefit more from this than another expensive high speed division...

[StealthyBlagga]

... Are IPSC modified guns going to come back into vogue, utilizing every square inch of box available? Is that the intent, or an unintended consequence?

IPSC Modified was an interesting division that stimulated a LOT of (sometimes expensive) innovation. In 3-Gun, though, I see less reason for folks to want to spend a fortune on a pistol that is unlikely to significantly improve their overall match performance. I for one am going to keep using my iron sighted "Limited-configuration" pistol and enjoy the maximum magazine capacity, rather than lose capacity in favor of a compact red dot sight. However, for our older patrons who struggle with irons, this may give them a more appealing option than Open Division.

So basically Open rifle, Modified shotgun and Modified pistol?

Cost is going to be pretty close to Open and if you want to go cheap, you'll be about as handicapped in this division as you would in Open. I usually hear cost as one of the main deterrents of Open and if this new division is going to be almost at expensive it's going to scare some away.

The bipod rule would annoy me a little bit as well, since I often fly to matches and might not have time to walk all stages before the match starts and spread it out over the days. Now I'd have to come early to check out all stages to see whether to use a bipod or not, or potentially give away an advantage (albeit probably not a big one) to the locals and early arrivals.

And I'm not sure I'd agree that Modified pistol are any less practical then "real" Open guns, but you know Modified way better than I do

You are correct that the Stealth rifle is essentially an Open rifle. If we are honest, there has never been that much of a difference in cost between comparable Tactical and Open rifles anyway - the big $$$ is in the rifle itself (barrel, trigger etc.) and in the optic. A secondary optic need be no more expensive than 45 degree irons, and a bipod is optional and cheap... I am not convinced the financial barrier of the rifle is insurmountable.

The shotgun does not have to fit in a box - the only restriction is the mag tube. This hopefully makes Stealth very accessible to Tactical competitors for only a minimal outlay. Yes, they can invest in porting (of dubious beneft IMHO) and a red dot (which might save a few Benelli barrels from the telegraph pole treatment), but I suspect we are talking about marginal gains... upgrade if you want, but you won't be buying your way up the prize table. The big difference with an Open shotgun is the box magazine, which is both a significant competitive advantage over the tube mag of the Stealth shotgun, and also a very substantial investment of $$$ and energy (and often a huge PITA to get running reliably... how is your Akdal running these days? ).

As I indicated above, I am not convinced a huge spend on an exotic pistol will gain anyone much in a typical 3-Gun match. The main advantage of a conventional 2011 Open pistol lies in the big stick magazine capacity, which is negated by the Stealth box dimensions. The compensator is of modest benefit with minor 9mm ammo, and a red dot would be a trade off against magazine capacity. I firmly believe that a Limited-type pistol will just make more sense for most.

In summary, I expect the overall cost of a Stealth setup should be substantially less than for an Open rig: rifle about the same, shotgun much cheaper, pistol much cheaper.

I can't help you with the bipod rule. Does not seem very different from a USPSA pistol match, which is even stricter on equipment changes. Part of any match prep is making a educated guess about which equipment to run, sometimes before you even step on the plane.

So it is tac ops with a bipod option on rifle, 30 round rifle mags, handgun size box, and length limit on SG tube.

You can certainly be competitive with such equipment, but Stealth is intended to be more than that... it gives competitors more freedom to innovate, while being less costly and more "practical" than a full-blown Open rig. Time will tell what upgrades make sense.

After thinking about it some more today, I'd argue that if you want to slim TO, you'd be better off doing it on the "lower" side of TO rather than the upper side, eg

TO rifle, but one optic, 1-4x max, 31 rounds loaded max

USPSA production pistol, 16 rounds loaded (because 10 is stupid)

TO "standard" shotgun, but 9 rounds loaded max.

I guess something similar to 3GN production, but i can't be bothered to look up their rules

This would be much cheaper, match a larger number of competitor equipment and probably draw more beginner/mid-level competitors.

IMHO, I think the sport would benefit more from this than another expensive high speed division...

Slimming down Tactical Division is not the only goal. Nevertheless, we did consider a lot of different options, including a "Tactical Lite" similar to what you describe. We also thought about adding more limitations to Limited (the de facto Tactical Lite today). In the end, we decided not to mess with divisions that are already successful (as Tactical and Limited are). Moreover, we wanted Stealth to create a natural home for the newest generation of real-world tactical guns like these:

Again, time will tell whether we get a meaningful number of defections from Tactical to Stealth. I hope so, because it is a really cool concept. Face camo optional.

Edited May 13, 2015 by StealthyBlagga

[Mad Doc]

Or defections from open to stealth

[Alaskapopo]

Don't see a need but I would like to see limited changed into what we call production. Pump shotgun, 10+1 pistol Rifle red dot or irons 30 round mags. The intent to keep the costs down for new shooters.

Pat

[StealthyBlagga]

Don't see a need but I would like to see limited changed into what we call production. Pump shotgun, 10+1 pistol Rifle red dot or irons 30 round mags. The intent to keep the costs down for new shooters.

Pat

Yeah, we looked at this kind of change, but weren't convinced it would significantly drive down costs for new shooters - the rifle costs the same (maybe save a few bucks vs. 40-round PMAGs), semi-auto shotguns cost almost as little as pumps these days (Stoeger, Mossberg) and are a more satisfactory long-term investment, and many Limited and Tactical shooters already run inexpensive handguns like the Glock even at the highest levels.

Oh, and I agree with Gose... 10 rounds in a pistol is stupid, particularly for new shooters as all it does is force them to perform more fine motor skills on the clock (multiple reloads). With how cheap standard-capacity magazines are these days, I just don't see the need except in the ban states (which are already 3-Gun unfriendly for bigger reasons).

[TyinTX]

Stealth looks pretty cool, if it caught on and spread I'd like to give it a shot. One question about the shotgun mag tube length though. I know the rule looks back to the SOF days, but with 24" barrels being so common on shotguns that are used now days why not extend the length a little bit to be more what is flush with a 24" barrel?

Don't see a need but I would like to see limited changed into what we call production. Pump shotgun, 10+1 pistol Rifle red dot or irons 30 round mags. The intent to keep the costs down for new shooters.

Pat

Yeah, we looked at this kind of change, but weren't convinced it would significantly drive down costs for new shooters - the rifle costs the same (maybe save a few bucks vs. 40-round PMAGs), semi-auto shotguns cost almost as little as pumps these days (Stoeger, Mossberg) and are a more satisfactory long-term investment, and many Limited and Tactical shooters already run inexpensive handguns like the Glock even at the highest levels.

Oh, and I agree with Gose... 10 rounds in a pistol is stupid, particularly for new shooters as all it does is force them to perform more fine motor skills on the clock (multiple reloads). With how cheap standard-capacity magazines are these days, I just don't see the need except in the ban states (which are already 3-Gun unfriendly for bigger reasons).

I like the fact that you aren't messing with limited. These days I think a new 3 gunner is just as likely to have a scope on his ar as a red dot. I chose to shoot limited, wasn't forced to by my equipment. Downloading pistol mags would actually increase costs for new shooters. I've shot now for over a year with only the 3 mags that came with my Xdm, not once have I had to have more mags to complete a stage. Download the mags to 10 and many stages I need all 3 just to complete stages with no misses. Miss a few times like a new shooter is going to, and now I need 4 maybe even 5 mags. Having 2 more rounds in my Xdm mag doesn't give me as a horrible pistol shooter a great advantage over using my Glock 17, but 17 or 19 rounds makes it much more enjoyable than reloading and running out of ammo.

[MarkCO]

Just a thought, and I have thought about it a good bit. If I was starting from scratch.

Open (and really make it open with no equipment limitations at all)!

Modified. You get one magnified and one non magnified optic (or laser), but can use them on any gun, or both on one. I would not limit the shotgun round capacity, just tube mags, 10 in tube at start. Double column mags only for rifle and 140mm for pistol.

Limited, 31 round rifle mags, 8 rounds on shotgun tubes, 15 rounds on pistol mags, one non-magnified optic on any gun.

Heavy, 20 round .308 rifle, 8 rounds on 12g shotgun tubes, 10 round .45. One hit per paper to neutralize. Split Division with one magnified optic OR one 1x optic/Irons. Stages with targets past 100 yards get split on scores, giving 2 100%s and combining.

Edited May 13, 2015 by MarkCO

[StealthyBlagga]

Stealth looks pretty cool, if it caught on and spread I'd like to give it a shot. One question about the shotgun mag tube length though. I know the rule looks back to the SOF days, but with 24" barrels being so common on shotguns that are used now days why not extend the length a little bit to be more what is flush with a 24" barrel?

We considered a slightly longer mag tube allowance, but that would make it feasible to fit 9 in the tube, potentially initiating a mag tube/short shell arms race. A 23" tube is already at the long end of the range for most practical application shotguns, and we only went this long to admit the wider range of off-the-shelf guns (VM Tactical, FN SLP etc. ). Folks with a 24" barrel will only have the muzzle protrude about 1/2" past the end of the tube.

Edited May 13, 2015 by StealthyBlagga

[MarkCO]

Stealth looks pretty cool, if it caught on and spread I'd like to give it a shot. One question about the shotgun mag tube length though. I know the rule looks back to the SOF days, but with 24" barrels being so common on shotguns that are used now days why not extend the length a little bit to be more what is flush with a 24" barrel?

We considered a slightly longer mag tube allowance, but that would make it feasible to fit 9 in the tube, potentially initiating a mag tube/short shell arms race. A 23" tube is already at the long end of the range for most practical application shotguns, and we only went this long to admit the wider range of off-the-shelf guns (VM Tactical, FN SLP etc. ). Folks with a 24" barrel will only have the muzzle protrude about 1/2" past the end of the tube.

I put my tube a little past the muzzle to protect the barrel and choke. A $10 cap is not a big deal. A folded over or dinged choke is another matter. Just another way of looking at it.

Edited May 13, 2015 by MarkCO

[StealthyBlagga]

Stealth looks pretty cool, if it caught on and spread I'd like to give it a shot. One question about the shotgun mag tube length though. I know the rule looks back to the SOF days, but with 24" barrels being so common on shotguns that are used now days why not extend the length a little bit to be more what is flush with a 24" barrel?

We considered a slightly longer mag tube allowance, but that would make it feasible to fit 9 in the tube, potentially initiating a mag tube/short shell arms race. A 23" tube is already at the long end of the range for most practical application shotguns, and we only went this long to admit the wider range of off-the-shelf guns (VM Tactical, FN SLP etc. ). Folks with a 24" barrel will only have the muzzle protrude about 1/2" past the end of the tube.

I put my tube a little past the muzzle to protect the barrel and choke. A $10 cap is not a big deal. A folded over or dinged choke is another matter. Just another way of looking at it.

I hear what you are saying. We originally went with the SOF rule verbatim, which would allow this, but this totally eliminated anything longer than 22", and put shorter barrels at a substantial disadvantage. Can't please everyone, but hopefully our wording will be workable for most. If muzzle damage proved problematic, I guess extended choke tubes or even a removable/non-functional protector could be placed on the end of the mag tube... I imagine the RM could interpret our rules to allow this, or we could even adapt the wording. Time will tell if this is seen as a major barrier to participation.

Edited May 14, 2015 by StealthyBlagga

[MickB]

I would modify the shotgun tube length limit to state;

5.3.3.1 Only a tubular magazine is permitted, and its effective interior length may not exceed 23” measured from the front of the

receiver. Plugs are permitted to limit interior length to 23". Speed loading devices are prohibited.

This would keep the tube length intent, and allow the competitor to use a plug or piece of wooden dowel, special cap, etc. to limit the inside length, and still give some standoff from the muzzle for protection.

Mick

Edited May 13, 2015 by MickB

[MarkCO]

^Like^

[StealthyBlagga]

I would modify the shotgun tube length limit to state;

5.3.3.1 Only a tubular magazine is permitted, and its effective interior length may not exceed 23 measured from the front of the

receiver. Plugs are permitted to limit interior length to 23". Speed loading devices are prohibited.

This would keep the tube length intent, and allow the competitor to use a plug or piece of wooden dowel, special cap, etc. to limit the inside length, and still give some standoff from the muzzle for protection.

Mick

We thought about this too (we spent a LOT of time thinking... unusual for us ). Ease of enforcement was the concern. There is also a significant competitive advantage to the longer tube in terms of spring pressure/resistance during loading. In the end, we came down on the side of enforceability with the rationale that a new magazine tube is comparatively inexpensive. As with everything Stealth, we will review and reconsider based on customer feedback and participation rates.

Edited May 13, 2015 by StealthyBlagga

[Alaskapopo]

Don't see a need but I would like to see limited changed into what we call production. Pump shotgun, 10+1 pistol Rifle red dot or irons 30 round mags. The intent to keep the costs down for new shooters.

Pat

Yeah, we looked at this kind of change, but weren't convinced it would significantly drive down costs for new shooters - the rifle costs the same (maybe save a few bucks vs. 40-round PMAGs), semi-auto shotguns cost almost as little as pumps these days (Stoeger, Mossberg) and are a more satisfactory long-term investment, and many Limited and Tactical shooters already run inexpensive handguns like the Glock even at the highest levels.

Oh, and I agree with Gose... 10 rounds in a pistol is stupid, particularly for new shooters as all it does is force them to perform more fine motor skills on the clock (multiple reloads). With how cheap standard-capacity magazines are these days, I just don't see the need except in the ban states (which are already 3-Gun unfriendly for bigger reasons).

The reason for the 10 round limit is to allow those who own lower capacity 1911's and similar guns a way to compete on fairly equal footing. It allows someone to start shooting without even having to buy a new pistol. Its worked well for us up here in Alaska. Same with a pump shotgun. Cheap semis are still not common and most people I know outside of the sport own a pump gun but not a semi auto shotgun. The rifle costs the same but the rifle part was not broken in limited its the expensive shotgun and handguns. Basically limited is tac optics minus the optic. Not much of a difference.

Pat

[Haraise]

I really like this division. Sure, I'd prefer 18.5" shotguns or mag fed ones... but seeing two yard long shotguns definitely scared me away from 3 Gun before. Being able to shoot a red dot carry type gun, awesome.