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Trimming with Dillon RT 1200B then Neck Sizing


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Recently upgraded from a Dillon 650 to a Super 1050 and while I was at it I decided to try out the Dillon RT 1200B since I was in the Christmas Spirit. I’ve been primarily reloading 308, using Military Lake City Headstamped brass which I really like. As I’m happily reloading away I noticed after seating a few bullet that small copper shavings start to appear all over my work bench. WTH? I thought to myself. So I whipped out my trusty caliper and started doing some quick measuring. Much to my surprise the OD on my resized LC brass is down to .331” before seating the bullet and .333” after seating. Dillon’s trimming die is sizing the neck so tight it is actually pealing back the copper jacket of my bullets. So I pick up the phone to Dillon to ask them WTH? Only 8 in the queue today, today is a good day. So Barney Fife answers the phone, and I patiently explain to Barney the situation and describe to him that it’s raining copper on my work bench. Steely eyed Mr. Fife comes to the conclusion that I need to chamfer the inside of case mouth and proceeds to give me a lesson on how to put a round peg in a round hole. I tell him that his solution is but a work around for a poorly designed trim die and proceed to ask him if a custom trim die was a possibility to which I was actually laughed at…

So back to the workbench for some pondering…. I immediately suspect the trim die is more so for commercial brass and not the thicker necked LC, but how to work with what I’ve already purchased? How about reaming the inside of the poorly designed Dillon trim die to a workable neck OD say .337” So back on the phone to Dillon to see what this little die is made of and how hard it will be to cut, 13 in the queue this time. I actually get ahold of someone who is trying to help as Barney is most likely explaining to someone else how basic geomitry works. Much to my dismay reaming it is out of the question. Apparently you have to have enough tension on the neck for the trimmer to do its job. Not enough tension and the case will simply spin and chatter against the blade. So the tech puts me through to the top Dillon Die Dr. who suggested sizing after trimming to bring back the OD to the desired size. Disappointment sets in, you’re the top guy, the top dog, the head honcho and this is all you have in your bag of tricks, changing the station setup?. He speaks to defend his position but I’ve already tuned him out. Off the phone now and I sit quietly in my cold, quite shop, staring at the shiny shards of copper twinkling on the bench. Hmmm…. Can it be done??? Perhaps.

So my question to you is this, has anyone successfully and accurately neck sizing brass to a desired OD, after running it through the Dillon RT 1200B Vice Grip, without negating the desired trim length?

Wont triming a case to a desired length then placed into a bushing type neck die undo all the work the trimmer just did?

Wouldn’t the expander ball moving up and out of the case neck as it exits the casing lengthen it?

I have ALWAYS sized the neck to the desired OD prior to trimming to length. Seems bassackwards to trim first.

Your thought or Barney Fife work around welcome……..

Edited by Cropper
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First of all calling the employees you spoke with at Dillon "Barney" is bullshit.

Second, take your die to a machine shop or a gunsmith and have them hone a couple thousandths off the neck.

Third, after you trim them and then chamfer and deburr the cases, run them through a normal FL resize die with an expander ball.

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Tom,

First I don’t know how you define good customer service but laughing at a customer’s question aint on the list.

Second, If you go back and read my post taking off a couple thousands off the trim die was my first though. AND PER DILLON NOT AN OPTION!

Third, and the point of my post, have you ever attempted to trim a case and then run it through a normal FL resize die with an expander ball, neck die, Lyman M die as surgdog suggested? Did it in fact pull and stretch the neck out? Did it undo what the trimmer attempted to do? Have you tried trimming first then sizing the neck?

I'm attempting to obtain a solution to a very specific problem. If you have an experience that may relate or might help, im all ears. If you want to cover the same ground I have covered and clearly related above, keep it to yourself.

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Surgdog, looked into the Lyman M die and have read that it may be deterimental to Concentricity / Run-Out. Any truth to that? Affect accuracy at all?

I haven't seen any mention of that in my reading. I got the idea from another member on this forum and so far I have just run plinking ammo that does well. For now I still reload competition ammo on a coax single stage and do all prep individually but that is far less volume than just fun shooting rounds.

I do know that after the RT 1200 die and trim I can't easily get flat base bullets to seat without doing something to the neck so I adjust the M die to just barely allow me to get a flatbase bullet in with ease and after the M die the case still passes the case gauge without problem. You can overdo the M die and flare the neck too much but it won't then pass the case gauge. As you can see the case gauge in mandatory in my opinion to setting up my Dillon 650 "prep" toolhead. I have not noticed the M die stretching the case.

Hope this helps.

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Caught a post on a M14 Forum about it. Basically it came down to the M die not having support on the outer side of the case wall. Without the proper support and if the expander wasnt alligned correctly the neck would cant slightly. Guy made a pretty good mod to correct it but out of my skill level. M die worth a stab though. Thanks for the input.

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Oh and to the two overly sensitive gentalmen above, the post was created in a form of satire for entertainment purposes. You remember like the Jeffersons and Archie Bunker...

sat·ire
ˈsaˌtī(ə)r/
noun
noun: satire
  1. the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues.
    synonyms: mockery, ridicule, derision, scorn, caricature; More
    "he has become the subject of satire"
    • a play, novel, film, or other work that uses satire.
      plural noun: satires
      "a stinging satire on American politics"
      synonyms: parody, burlesque, caricature, lampoon, skit; More
      informalspoof, takeoff, sendup
      "a satire on Canadian politics"
    • a genre of literature characterized by the use of satire.
    • (in Latin literature) a literary miscellany, especially a poem ridiculing prevalent vices or follies.
Edited by Cropper
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Are you absolutely certain they are copper shavings or could they be brass shavings? After trimming, are you cleaning the inside and outside edges of the necks to eliminate any burrs?

What is the ID of the neck?

A Lyman M die could easily expand the neck a couple thousands without affecting the length or concentricity if your neck is truly undersized and/or your are seating flat based bullets.

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They appear to be copper. Deburred with a Lee thimble debur tool. I pulled one of the bullets and its mangled. I also noticed a buildup of copper at the very top of the neck mouth, kind of a bulge. Hornady,168g HPBT. Went and measured some brass that had been through the trimmer I had not loaded yet and the OD is .331” and the ID .301” a difference of .030”, measured the neck wall thickness to verify and they measured .015”. In my experience brass will give somewhat but fitting a .308” bullet into a .301” hole appears to be too much. Perhaps I should buy tougher bullets.

Edited by Cropper
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They appear to be copper. Deburred with a Lee thimble debur tool. I pulled one of the bullets and its mangled. I also noticed a buildup of copper at the very top of the neck mouth, kind of a bulge. Hornady,168g HPBT. Went and measured some brass that had been through the trimmer I had not loaded yet and the OD is .331” and the ID .301” a difference of .030”, measured the neck wall thickness to verify and they measured .015”. In my experience brass will give somewhat but fitting a .308” bullet into a .301” hole appears to be too much. Perhaps I should buy tougher bullets.

Although I don't load .308, I do load rifle on my XL 650 (trim, prep, load, etc.). I agree that .301 would seem a bit tight. I'd recommend you run a neck expander post trim (like the Lyman M-die or 21st Century or RCBS) and your problems will be solved. It won't alter your case length of any significance. Or, run a post trim sizing die with mandrel.

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Thanks for the advice RDA. Think I will do some experimenting this weekend with a Lee Collet Die with mandrel and possibly pick up the Lyman M die and give it a test spin. Little disapointed in the Dillon Trimmer, though it would save me time but it apears to be creating more work...

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The Dillon trimmer is a great time saver! I use it for both 223 and 308 for 3gun, under 1moa ammo. Process on one head, tumble again to remove lube, load on another, only handle the brass once to sort before starting the process head, and once again after loading to QC/chamber check. I do not bother to deburr or chamber.

Yea, the Dillon trimmer does squeeze the neck down too much. But I think it's the only way to keep the brass from spinning in the trimmer. I use the swage hold down rod for expansion after trim, and close it with a tiny crimp, but any mandrel die will do what you need.

By the way, bagging on the Dillon reps here will get you nowhere. Yea, we all have gotten advice from the help line that we considered unhelpful at the time. But sometimes the truth hurts. You just learned from him something you needed to figure a work around for, like all of us.

imho

jj

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Thanks for the comments JJ,

Wasn’t trying to bad mouth Dillon or its employees, too much, just found it amusing the different responses and level of help I received from the two different calls. First guy was no help and insisted it wasn’t a problem with their equipment but my chosen method of finishing my brass. Second call was much more productive and gave the solution that may prove fruitful. Telling your customer that they simply need to chamfer the case mouth to squeeze a bullet into an undersized neck that was caused by their product sizing it down to much was no help at all.

I like Dillon, and their equipment. Customers service is usually above par and so is their tooling. This experience has left me wanting….

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Yea, that's why I make a point of calling more than once on some things... Maybe the 1st guy you talked to just got off the phone with a real butt-head customer. Maybe he doesn't have that much experience with what you are asking about. Etc, etc...

but all in all they, Dillon, is a great company with customer support second to none imho.

Coming here helps a lot too...

jj

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Cropper,

I have not noticed any elongation of the case after the M die and that is with caliper measurement of lenght. I'm not sophisticated enough in my reloading to check run-out--yet.

Like I said I load competion ammo on a Forester coax single stage.

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Thanks for the advice RDA. Think I will do some experimenting this weekend with a Lee Collet Die with mandrel and possibly pick up the Lyman M die and give it a test spin. Little disapointed in the Dillon Trimmer, though it would save me time but it apears to be creating more work...

It isn't really creating any more work, just slap the expander of choice into an open slot after your trimming. You have to cycle the press either way, with or without a station occupied.

You aren't the first to encounter this by any stretch, lots of people address the neck size post trimming with either a sizing die / neck expander or mandrel.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=185911

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=200860

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=183976

(and plenty more if you search)

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I used a standard M die for a while and it did solve the problem, but in my quest to reduce runout (even though the ammo shot incredibly well) I now use the following:

  • Dillon Trim.
  • Sinclair floating expander die with carbide mandrel.
  • Lyman M die with custom mandrel (.304/.311).

The thin part of the M die is undersize, so it doesn't touch the neck after the Sinclair has done its work; the M die just does the flaring part (the progressive alternative to chamfering).

An alternative to the Sinclair die is the expander from 21st Century which several have reported to work well. It uses a TiN treated mandrel rather than carbide, but is otherwise similar, from what I’ve read.

Another alternative to try is the Dillon trim die from CH4D. They are said to be less tight in the neck, but you'd probably still need to flare a little. I bought one but I'm happy with my current solution so I haven't tried it yet.

Edited by roxfo
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