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Limited 6 interest thread


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Hello everybody,

My name is Chris Comer and I am the rules director for ICORE. In light of recent discussion and input from ICORE members we have created a committee to explore the idea of adding a new division in ICORE. This idea is in its very preliminary stages but I feel it in important to get input from shooters, remember the new BOD is the "new face of ICORE". I will cross post this on Revo-Nation as well.

We are exploring the idea of adding a second limited division exclusively for those that wish to shoot 6 shot moon clipped guns in ICORE without having to shoot against the 8 shot guns. As you all know ICORE is 6 shot neutral but it is extremely difficult to make a course of fire where the 8 shot revolver doesn't have an advantage. With USPSA and IDPA turning their noses up at the 6 shot guns We feel that we must explore this option.

The problem is that there really aren't many of us that will make the trip to an ICORE regional match. The IRC is well attended but dividing the total in attendance with another division at the lesser matches could be a problem. So I am asking the shooting community the following questions:

If ICORE implements a limited-6 division will you be more likely or less likely to:

attend an ICORE event?

shoot the new division?

crossover from IDPA or USPSA to shoot ICORE?

what other concerns would you have?

please take a minute to vote in the pole and please post a comment about your feelings on the subject.

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I already plan on attending two regionals next year with my 8 shot.

If there was a division where the 625 was a natural fit I would be really tempted to shoot 45, especially if the power factor was set to where the 45 was not at a disadvantage to a moonclipped classic gun.

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I don't think there would be enough competitors to fill out the division, especially at the smaller matches. There are tons of speedloader guns in circulation and we only get 30 something shooters even at the IRC. By the time you break that down into classes there is just barely enough competitors. I'm afraid it would end up one of those divisions where you get a trophy for showing up much like the ESR division was in IDPA before they killed it off. The people that I know that were forced to get an 8 shooter because of the USPSA rule change are so happy with their new 8 shooter that they are selling off their 625's and never want to go back, I don't think having a separate place to play in ICORE is going to change their minds.

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That is a concern Greg. I'm not wanting to take away from the people we already have attending ICORE matches. But I am hopeful there are enough that would come and play that don't because they don't own an 8 shot.

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I would like to shoot ICORE but there is nothing within reasonable driving distance. I think the nearest ones are in OK, AR, and IA. I have never shot an ICORE match. There seems little point in going to a regional or IRC having no idea what it's like. I would shoot in a 6 shot moon clip class and probably other classes if allowed to shoot more than one class per match.

Maybe the better question is "How do we get more local ICORE matches?" I have several friends who would shoot it too, if available. I don't have time to put on a match myself due to workload, but I could run out and shoot sometimes if one were close enough.

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I'm with Gregg on this one, a trophy for a match fee.

If the IRC wants to recognize it as a special catergory, as I think they have in the past, that's fine.

Gonna have to go no, not enough participation to warrant splitting some people out of limited, and most likely stealing some from classic.

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Sorry Chris, I gotta put in a *no* vote on this, I really just don't think the juice is worth the squeeze on this one. ICORE is small enough and segregating us into even more groups doesn't do anybody any good. Six shot guns in ICORE are probably going to be the smallest division always,and ICORE already recognizes high six shooter for the match already, no need to chop it up even further - I think it's fine the way it currently is.

I applaud , and appreciate the efforts to try to expand revolver division, I just think time and energy can be spent elsewhere, like icore advertising, maybe more major icore matches around the country, and updating the icore.org website ;-)

Edited by alecmc
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Chris -

Thanks for starting the thread. I think the emphasis of the topic of the correct but the approach might not be.

ICORE advertises itself as the revolver shooter's game. I really like the sub category options that exist because they are logical. There are plenty of people with 625s. There are occassional people with 6 shot moonclip guns with red dots on them, mostly for plate matches. There are plenty of people with snub nose guns. They should have a place within the ICORE competition structure.

Yet demand for 6 shot anything remains low. Classic has been struggling for awhile and that would be the quintessential "Entry Level" division - think of all those K and L frames sitting around. At the IRC, there were only 8 competitors for the 6 shot Limited Class sub category, and 2 for Open 6 shot. At other matches, those sub categories aren't even offered. I think part of that is due to the size of the IRC and the fee structure. People spend a lot of money to get out there and most people want to focus on one gun and shoot it well. I shot two guns last year and I was OK, but it's definitely a marathon. I certainly wouldn't want to spend all of that money for the Limited 6 belt buckle.

I think an entirely new division is too aggressive. However, I think there should be some sort of recognition encouraged for the sub categories to get them to grow. ICORE doesn't have any awards policies so it's up to match directors to choose what they want to do for awards. I do think there should be an award for the head of a subcategory as long as there are 3 people in that group - it's IDPA's old policy, and it's also how an MD in this relative area does his ICORE awards. This doesn't have to be extensive or extravagant. I like how ICORE does the cash money plaques, a sub category award could be the same sort of thing. Go to the dollar store and pick up a picture frame for 1 or 2 bucks. Print out an award template you designed on Photoshop onto nice paper. Put a cardboard backing on there. Bam, you have a shooting award for 3 or 4 dollars.

NINJA EDIT:

There should be more ICORE matches, in general, especially at the state level. I've been trying to get places around here to do it. That would show the true demand for something like a new division. If there was a huge pool of shooters, I would even go so far as to host a special event where only 6 shot guns were recognized. Right now, anything ICORE in this area seems to be struggling, never mind novelty things.

Edited by Cd662
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I would like to shoot ICORE but there is nothing within reasonable driving distance. I think the nearest ones are in OK, AR, and IA. I have never shot an ICORE match. There seems little point in going to a regional or IRC having no idea what it's like. I would shoot in a 6 shot moon clip class and probably other classes if allowed to shoot more than one class per match.

I wouldn't let that stop you from going to a regional or the IRC. If you have ever shot USPSA, it's the same thing with a lot tougher scoring and tombstone targets. I have nothing to shoot anywhere near me and my first match was a regional and then I went to the IRC and had a great time. The last 2 years I have had one ICORE match a year and it's the IRC. I too really wish there were more opportunities to shoot locally.

Edited by Gregg K
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If the Postal Match is any indication of how stage designers cope with 6 shot neutral stages then adding another division wont help unless we get rid of 6 shot neutral. Shooting a target 6 times, reloading, shooting another target 6 times is just plain silly and a waste of ammo. Lets have divisions that make sense for the guns that are out there. Limited 6 isn't JUST for 625's after all. I have a 686, 629 and my 625 that all take full moons. 610's and whatever the number for those 41 magnums that are out there can all play too. Lets dump the artificial constraint on our stage designers and let them design stages that are fun and challenging to shoot without worrying about 6 shot neutrality. I'm sure there are people with 6 and 7 shot open guns, I have one, but they are the minority by far in a sport that has precious few participants as it it. Limited is the only division that really causes our reliance on 6 shot neutral stages. Please fix it.

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If the Postal Match is any indication of how stage designers cope with 6 shot neutral stages then adding another division wont help unless we get rid of 6 shot neutral. Shooting a target 6 times, reloading, shooting another target 6 times is just plain silly and a waste of ammo. Lets have divisions that make sense for the guns that are out there. Limited 6 isn't JUST for 625's after all. I have a 686, 629 and my 625 that all take full moons. 610's and whatever the number for those 41 magnums that are out there can all play too. Lets dump the artificial constraint on our stage designers and let them design stages that are fun and challenging to shoot without worrying about 6 shot neutrality. I'm sure there are people with 6 and 7 shot open guns, I have one, but they are the minority by far in a sport that has precious few participants as it it. Limited is the only division that really causes our reliance on 6 shot neutral stages. Please fix it.

The Postal match is supposed to be easy to setup to accommodate all different types of ranges to maximize participation. I haven't shot any matches where there were stages that required six rounds on a target, with the exception of classifiers that required it. Everyone is going to define "6 shot neutral" differently - it should mean that a stage can be shot in a logical manner for 6 shot guns. That is to say, there shouldn't be a 7 round array, and then an 8 round array, and then another 7. Four straight 8 round arrays would make more sense, because 24 is divisible by 6. If people started making crazy stages that were difficult for 6 shot guns, Classic would probably die. I think the constraint aspect of stage design is a non-issue.

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Regardless of the outcome of Limited 6 I think that we should give up on the impossible requirement of "6 shot neutral" and change the rule to "6 shot friendly" using Cd662's definition "that a stage can be shot in a logical manner for 6 shot guns". That will not affect 8 shot guns and will still make it fun for Classic (and Limited 6) shooters. A 9 shot array isn't 6 shot neutral if it is advantageous to carry rounds to the next position, and this results in the artificial "9 shot array with a mandatory reload before the next position" which is clunky and isn't fun.

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Then you haven't shot this years postal match.

If the Postal Match is any indication of how stage designers cope with 6 shot neutral stages then adding another division wont help unless we get rid of 6 shot neutral. Shooting a target 6 times, reloading, shooting another target 6 times is just plain silly and a waste of ammo. Lets have divisions that make sense for the guns that are out there. Limited 6 isn't JUST for 625's after all. I have a 686, 629 and my 625 that all take full moons. 610's and whatever the number for those 41 magnums that are out there can all play too. Lets dump the artificial constraint on our stage designers and let them design stages that are fun and challenging to shoot without worrying about 6 shot neutrality. I'm sure there are people with 6 and 7 shot open guns, I have one, but they are the minority by far in a sport that has precious few participants as it it. Limited is the only division that really causes our reliance on 6 shot neutral stages. Please fix it.

The Postal match is supposed to be easy to setup to accommodate all different types of ranges to maximize participation. I haven't shot any matches where there were stages that required six rounds on a target, with the exception of classifiers that required it. Everyone is going to define "6 shot neutral" differently - it should mean that a stage can be shot in a logical manner for 6 shot guns. That is to say, there shouldn't be a 7 round array, and then an 8 round array, and then another 7. Four straight 8 round arrays would make more sense, because 24 is divisible by 6. If people started making crazy stages that were difficult for 6 shot guns, Classic would probably die. I think the constraint aspect of stage design is a non-issue.

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I saw the stages. You said that your concern was that 6 round neutral would somehow result in stages where you shoot targets 6 times a piece. That's not how ICORE matches have been interpreting "6 shot neutral" so it's an unfounded concern. I think everyone should go back and read Chris' post. 6 shot neutral does not have to mean "Every array has three targets with 2 shots each" on them. There are a lot of options to do interesting things, but it's up to match directors and staff to build interesting stages.

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I saw the stages. You said that your concern was that 6 round neutral would somehow result in stages where you shoot targets 6 times a piece. That's not how ICORE matches have been interpreting "6 shot neutral" so it's an unfounded concern. I think everyone should go back and read Chris' post. 6 shot neutral does not have to mean "Every array has three targets with 2 shots each" on them. There are a lot of options to do interesting things, but it's up to match directors and staff to build interesting stages.

It is exactly how the stage designer for the postal match interpreted it so it is a valid concern.

What is with this fear of change? USPSA changed their revolver division and it has been for the good. It has even spilled over into our local ICORE clubs because a bunch of the guys who have started shooting USPSA revolver want someplace to play.

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That logic still makes zero sense. "One person designed stages with six shots required per target, therefore, I bet the cat's out of the bag now and matches everywhere will suffer from this problem. Implementing another 6 shot division, when one already exists, will alleviate this risk."

The fear is dilluting an already small population of shooters. About half of the sanctioned ICORE matches are well attended, and the other half are not. If the people REALLY WANTED to shoot their 6 shot moonclip guns, wouldn't they be doing it already? There would be a tangible demand. If the SUBCATEGORY is not being filled when it already exists, how will adding new classifier statistics change the attendance rate? If there was no recognition potential for Limited 6, that would be a different story, but it already exists and it is not being utilized. Another poorly attended division would also dillute the prizes at the IRC, and presumably it would change the "cash money" plaque payouts at regional events. If there's a way to make it work, people should with the tools they have.

It's another topic entirely, but I have not noticed new USPSA Revolver shooters from the rule change. It's the same people as before, shooting 627s instead of 625s.

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We aren't going to gain any new shooters with another division, unless it was an autoloader division. And I can't see that happening given the name of the organization.

More faces at big matches, new shooters at club matches, more incentive to travel to regional and the IRC, that's where I think we should spend our time and energy.

There are some big names out there that hold HHF in ICORE. Names like Leathem, and Nils. How many folks from the USPSA revolver nationals were at the IRC? They all own revolvers, why aren't we solicitating to them?

What is keeping people who are willing to travel to USPSA matches to shoot revolver away from the IRC? Or am I just nuts to think there are 50-75 people in that category? We could have the same conversation the other way around. I met tons on great people at the IRC that have never been to USPSA nationals.

Maybe moving the IRC will bring some fresh faces. Right now it's word of mouth that it even exists to people outside of our little groups online, and maybe a few clubs.

How do we market ICORE to more shooters, new shooters, and auto guys? I don't think limited 6 is the answer.

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That logic still makes zero sense. "One person designed stages with six shots required per target, therefore, I bet the cat's out of the bag now and matches everywhere will suffer from this problem. Implementing another 6 shot division, when one already exists, will alleviate this risk."

The fear is dilluting an already small population of shooters. About half of the sanctioned ICORE matches are well attended, and the other half are not. If the people REALLY WANTED to shoot their 6 shot moonclip guns, wouldn't they be doing it already? There would be a tangible demand. If the SUBCATEGORY is not being filled when it already exists, how will adding new classifier statistics change the attendance rate? If there was no recognition potential for Limited 6, that would be a different story, but it already exists and it is not being utilized. Another poorly attended division would also dillute the prizes at the IRC, and presumably it would change the "cash money" plaque payouts at regional events. If there's a way to make it work, people should with the tools they have.

It's another topic entirely, but I have not noticed new USPSA Revolver shooters from the rule change. It's the same people as before, shooting 627s instead of 625s.

The organizations sponsored international match isn't just "one person designed stages with six shots required per target." It is a message to those who run our matches that goofy target engagements are par for the course in this "sport". We have goofy stages with 3 target arrays requiring 3 shots each followed by a mandatory reload at our local club as it is.

At our local ICORE matches many of the new shooters are USPSA shooters who never shot revolver but bought one when the 8 shot rule change went into effect. Now they are coming to the ICORE match. Change helped that sport and spilled over into ICORE.

There is no "sub category" at all. 6 Shot is a special category recognized at IRC. It isn't part of the rules.

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3 SPECIAL RECOGNITION CATEGORIES

3.1 Special Recognition Categories (SRC's) are special categories approved by ICORE to be used at matches

to provide another means for a competitor to be recognized for his or her achievements. Recognizing SRC's

is not mandatory at ICORE Events, but at the discretion of Match Director/Organizers.

3.1.1 Age requirements of Special Recognition Categories are defined as:

3.1.2 Junior Competitors must be under the age of 18 on the first day of the match.

3.1.3 Senior Competitors must be 55 or older on the first day of the match.

3.1.4 Super Senior Competitors must be 65 or older on the first day of the match.



Presumably, the SRCs used at the IRC are approved. Earlier this year on the Revo Nation forum, I suggested to ChrisC that the Limited6/Open6/all that other stuff receive official mention in the rulebook. There is no guideline here for how to recognize said achievements. The only requirement per this verbiage is that an SRC has to be approved by ICORE. A regional match could get approval to run Limited 6 as a Special Recognition Category and give out however many plaques or other prizes they deemed appropriate.

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Okay, you are correct there.

3 SPECIAL RECOGNITION CATEGORIES
3.1 Special Recognition Categories (SRC's) are special categories approved by ICORE to be used at matches
to provide another means for a competitor to be recognized for his or her achievements. Recognizing SRC's
is not mandatory at ICORE Events, but at the discretion of Match Director/Organizers.
3.1.1 Age requirements of Special Recognition Categories are defined as:
3.1.2 Junior Competitors must be under the age of 18 on the first day of the match.
3.1.3 Senior Competitors must be 55 or older on the first day of the match.
3.1.4 Super Senior Competitors must be 65 or older on the first day of the match.
Presumably, the SRCs used at the IRC are approved. Earlier this year on the Revo Nation forum, I suggested to ChrisC that the Limited6/Open6/all that other stuff receive official mention in the rulebook. There is no guideline here for how to recognize said achievements. The only requirement per this verbiage is that an SRC has to be approved by ICORE. A regional match could get approval to run Limited 6 as a Special Recognition Category and give out however many plaques or other prizes they deemed appropriate.

People like to compete with equipment that is officially recognized against others who are using similar equipment. The 625, 25, 1917 and other revolvers that have a 6 shot capacity and are capable of being reloaded with moonclips deserve to be able to compete on a level playing field with guns of similar capacities. These guns have been around for going on 100 years and the revolver sport, ICORE, has no home for them. To tell the shooters who wish to shoot these classic revolvers that they have to rely upon the match director to decide to offer a special category is ridiculous. Personally I would be fine with making ALL of Limited 6 shot only and leave the 8 shots to open class only. I get that this is an unpopular opinion and embrace the decision of ICORE's leadership to explore the notion of Limited 6. After we get the divisions squared away we can focus on the real challenge, growing this sport and getting clubs in all 50 states or at least within driving distance of the majority populations in all 50 states.

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I am afraid of dividing the shooters we already have. I want the sport to grow. This is healthy discussion. I appreciate all of your time and input into this matter. These threads are being monitored by several of the BOD members. Its your organization as ICORE members, we are here for you.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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I am afraid of dividing the shooters we already have. I want the sport to grow. This is healthy discussion. I appreciate all of your time and input into this matter. These threads are being monitored by several of the BOD members. Its your organization as ICORE members, we are here for you.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Without growth the sport is much more likely to die off and that would be a shame. Thanks for taking the time out to check in on this forum and see what the shooters want.

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