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If we have Limited 10...why not Production 10?


mwc

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The title says it all. From what I understand the 10 round magazine limit in Limited 10 came into being because some states restrict magazine capacity. So why not do the same for production and let folks in the rest of the country use the magazines that came with the gun regardless of capacity as long as they fit in the box

or

use IPSC rules and make it a 15 round limit.

I don't think that increasing the capacity would affect many of the seasoned folks playing the game, but I know that new shooters would appreciate the extra rounds when missing steel on a texas star. I think it would make Production more fun. I switched my kids over to shooting Limited minor with their production guns for this very reason and they were much happier not having to do standing reloads or running out of ammo on a big steel stage. :blush:

Anyway, not trying to stir anything up...just a thought.

Edited by mwc
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My XDm 9 holds 19+1 from the factory. In a division that by design levels the playing field so it's more about shooter than equipment, that would give me a competitive advantage over a guy using 10 round Glock mags because that's all he can own where he lives.

As for the question of "why not 15 instead of 10", same reason IMO. 15 rounds is a huge competitive advantage over 10 rounds. on a 32 round field course, that's 2 reloads instead of 3. That's a 1 second difference to the average shooter.

Production is a great division if you want it to be all about the shooter (for the most part). For people who enjoy the technology of the game and being able to tweak their gun, Limited is the ticket. I think Production is exactly as it should be.

Edited by kcobean
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That's why the different division...Production 10 (Using only 10 rounds per magazine). Production division could use 15 rounds.

I am just talking about magazine capacity here. Leave the guns the way they are.

All I am saying is if it made sense to do it for Limited/Limited 10... then why not here?

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I dig the way production is, I live in New York so we even have open-10 lol, but I think production tests the fundamentals of action shooting better than any other division, trigger control, taking a good sight picture, recoil control, and gun handling. Shooting limited minor would be a fun time to just burn through stages without concentrating so much on reloads, but I'm not sure we need to change around a whole division for it.

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Think of Production in USPSA as sort of a IROC division. Not quite of course as we odn't restrict you to exactly one platform and no modifications, but similar. You have a limited capacity (sort of like the restrictor plate or the fuel cell capacity) and very limited other modifications that are allowed(sort of like the restrictor plate or the fuel cell capacity). You are in a race against other shooters here, not other wallets.

If you want to shoot in a less restricted division, take your XDM9 and load it up, shoot fast and accurate in Limited or add a dot and some mag extensions and head on over to Open. Production as it is in USPSA allows anyone to show up and shoot, at least at the local level just about any gun they happen to own. You have an XDm, what about the guy with the XD 40? he only got 12 rounds, want to tell him, sorry we have no place for you? Or hey dude, go drop another $800 on another gun and mags so you can shoot in this division? Same applies to a lot of guns. Also the capacity restriction allows guys with one gun, maybe .45, maybe a 9mm or .357Sig to be in the running. Take way the capacity cap and only 9mm and only a very few guns are viable. USPSA already suffers from the 'You can't play this game without a $4,000.00 race gun' syndrome. making a change to Production to allow increased capacity and race holsters would only add fuel to that.

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The title says it all. From what I understand the 10 round magazine limit in Limited 10 came into being because some states restrict magazine capacity. So why not do the same for production and let folks in the rest of the country use the magazines that came with the gun regardless of capacity as long as they fit in the box

or

use IPSC rules and make it a 15 round limit.

I don't think that increasing the capacity would affect many of the seasoned folks playing the game, but I know that new shooters would appreciate the extra rounds when missing steel on a texas star. I think it would make Production more fun. I switched my kids over to shooting Limited minor with their production guns for this very reason and they were much happier not having to do standing reloads or running out of ammo on a big steel stage. :blush:

Anyway, not trying to stir anything up...just a thought.

We already have that which you seek -- it's called Limited.....

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I could say the same for only having 10 rounds in production. Is there a commonly used production gun that can't hold 15 rounds?

Let's face it...the number 10 came from some lame politician that thought only having 10 rounds in a magazine would some how make the world a safer place.

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All I am saying is that the rest of the world aka IPSC is using 15 rounds in their production division. Why shouldn't we?

I agree. And I wonder why none of the objectors are addressing this truth.

Again,

What is the problem with having Production (with a 15 round limit like the rest of the world) and Production 10 for those (very few) states where 15 is a problem?

Not every state with mag limits is a 10 round state. New Jersey and Colorado come to mind, I think Maryland too. All are 15 rounds max.

Edited by elguapo
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I think you are thinking about this backwards ....

The reason Limited 10 came about was so that folks who still wanted to all the attributes of Limited could still have the division to play in, just with a mag limit.

Production on the other hand never was a high capacity magazine division so there would be no reason to change rules to accommodate anything ...

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Then why do we have limited 10?

Because a number of guns do not fit competitively anywhere else......

This is something any match director with a couple of years of experience could speak to......

Beretta 96, Browning HP, Sig 220, the original XD in .40 or .45, simply don't fit well anywhere else......

Whereas any production legal gun isn't hampered by downloading to ten rounds, since every other competitor in the division plays by that rule. Now, if that's not your idea of fun, then there are other divisions you can play in....

Production is immensely popular -- if it ain't broke, don't fix it.....

One local Grandmaster used to enter a match with Production legal gear, shooting minor, ten rounds, and when asked which division he wanted to shoot told the MD "whichever auto division will have enough entries for you pay the division winner." He was perfectly capable of winning Limited with production gear, minor scoring and ten rounds mags....

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No need to get personal Nik...just looking for a logical answer other than " because we've always done it this way" argument. I am always amazed at

how resistant people are to changing anything.

Is the 15 round limit hurting the production division in IPSC?

Edited by mwc
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What if Missouri adopted a 10 round mag capacity law. Possession would be a felony if it held more than 10. As unlikely as that might be, one never can say never in today's times.

Would your feelings still be the same as you are advocating now?

Edited by Gary Stevens
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If that happened what difference would it make? Every division would be affected then. Based on that logic then the USPSA should change the magazine capacity to 10 for all divisions. If its a felony have have a magazine in production that is over 10 rounds then it would be a felony to have limited or open high cap as well...right?

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What if Missouri adopted a 10 round mag capacity law. Possession would be a felony if it held more than 10. As unlikely as that might be, one never can say never in today's times.

Would your feelings still be the same as you are advocating now?

In all fairness that is a silly hypothetical, why not say 7 rounds then virtually everything is illegal?

I'm a big fan of yours Gary, but some of these arguments (certainly not just yours but all of them) against change/improvements have been infuriating me. If we went with the thought process of many on this and similar boards we would not even have wheels yet.

No one is trying to fix Production, but I can see the point of aligning with IPSC on this one.

Many of the arguments against a Production Optics were just plain stupid, as in Jonathon Gruber stupid.

I'm already sorry I posted in this thread.

Done

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If that happened what difference would it make? Every division would be affected then. Based on that logic then the USPSA should change the magazine capacity to 10 for all divisions. If its a felony have have a magazine in production that is over 10 rounds then it would be a felony to have limited or open high cap as well...right?

Well, I live In a state that just passed magazine restrictions. Colorado now limits to 15 but if you already owned the mags you're grandfathered.

I can tell you first hand that it does not affect all of the divisions because of grandfathering. It only affects you if you are looking to change divisions. I do not have standard magazines for anything so I am now limited to revolver, single stack, production and limited 10. This is the case in several states, and most of them are limited to 10 round mags.

If you can't handle shooting production with only two extra rounds in your mags, learn to shoot better or shoot in limited.

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You don't need to make Division capacity rules for States with capacity limits. Down here in Aust we are by limited to 10 round magazines we shoot IPSC and the rules don't change for us. If guy's go overseas they use higher capacity mags to shoot those matches.

Your USPSA rule book could do away with Limited 10 as a division and not effect anyone, as those in states with restrictions shoot xxxx 10 anyway like we do. We just abide by the law of the land, in my State we are allowed up to .45 for IPSC Classic but as yet the other States are not, so in my State I shoot .45 major PF and when I do interstate I shoot 9mm minor PF.

The 15 round limit for Production was bought in to stop the perceived capacity race in Production from manufacturers selling greater capacity OEM mags like the Sig Tac Ops 226 that has a 20 rnd capacity, personally it wouldn't bother me if they dropped the limit and allowed factory capacities.

Edited by terrydoc
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Well glad I move this forward.

Why it makes a difference is if you like to compete then you are restricted to your state or another state that has the same laws. That way you are on a level playing field.

Now if you just like to shoot, you have no problems.

Go to a match in a non restricted state and you can use your Open 10 round mags against my 29 round mags. Or you can use your 10 round Limited mags against my 19 round mags.

It does make a difference. I am not advocating anything, just asking that we consider all possibilities.

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There are various reasons for a million little divisions. Every sport has the same issue to deal with. People who want to change it because of whatever. If the reason is pure genius, or highly necessary, or legally mandated, then the change probably happens. If the reason is "meh", then the status quo is generally less intrusive on existing membership, so the change is probably not adopted.

Prod 10 sounds to me like a "meh" reason to have another division. OP stated a desire to "use the magazines that came with the gun" but can do so under current Prod rules, so that argument doesn't even make sense. Aligning with IPSC seems to be of very low value, as we're a relatively isolated country, and there aren't tons of Mexicans or Canadians hoping to flood across the borders to compete in USPSA, if only our divisions aligned.

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You don't need to make Division capacity rules for States with capacity limits. Down here in Aust we are by limited to 10 round magazines we shoot IPSC and the rules don't change for us. If guy's go overseas they use higher capacity mags to shoot those matches.

Your USPSA rule book could do away with Limited 10 as a division and not effect anyone, as those in states with restrictions shoot xxxx 10 anyway like we do. We just abide by the law of the land, in my State we are allowed up to .45 for IPSC Classic but as yet the other States are not, so in my State I shoot .45 major PF and when I do interstate I shoot 9mm minor PF.

The 15 round limit for Production was bought in to stop the perceived capacity race in Production from manufacturers selling greater capacity OEM mags like the Sig Tac Ops 226 that has a 20 rnd capacity, personally it wouldn't bother me if they dropped the limit and allowed factory capacities.

Well said.

The same problem exists in Canada. All pistol magazines are limited to 10rds. When Canadians come to the USA to shoot, they bring cordless drills to fix their mags, and pop-rivets for the trip home.

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So let's see who is limited to 10 rounds or less..........

New York

Massachussetts

Hawaii

California

Connecticut

Maryland

Wow, a grand total of six. So 44 states have to kowtow to six of them?

Screw that. 15 rounds for Production to align with IPSC. The minority can deal with it however they can.

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