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If we have Limited 10...why not Production 10?


mwc

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Because production was born to compete with idpa's ssp division. A division with a 10 rnd mag limit. Production was born to bring more shooters in after seeing the success of a "stock" class in another shooting sport. If you make a magazine capacity change then it is harder to cross over between them.

And frankly, if you are emptying a mag on a texas star, capacity isn't the issue. Your fundamentals are.......

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Because production was born to compete with idpa's ssp division. A division with a 10 rnd mag limit. Production was born to bring more shooters in after seeing the success of a "stock" class in another shooting sport. If you make a magazine capacity change then it is harder to cross over between them..

You didn't think this through very well did you?

Let me show you how easy it is for someone who lives in the overwhelming majority of the states with no stupid limits to cross over from IDPA SSP to USPSA Production (with a 15 round limit): stick five more rounds in the magazine.

Man, that was a tough barrier to overcome.........

I have yet to hear a solid, non-refutable reason why USPSA Production should not be 15 rounds like IPSC.

Other than: because 'Murica.....

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I'm ok with the align with IPSC, if your ok with a minimum 5lb first shot trigger pull and absolutely no aftermarket parts other than sights that fit the factory cut. No 5 1/4" competition models, and I don't think you are even allowed to polish your internal parts

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My post wasn't an agreement with the logic of a decision made before me, but how I understood it to be made at the time. So yeah, there was no thinking required on my part.

Keep wishing for greater than 10 rounds in production, it will never happen.

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So let's see who is limited to 10 rounds or less..........

New York

Massachusetts(sp corrected)

Hawaii

California

Connecticut

Maryland

Wow, a grand total of six. So 44 states have to kowtow to six of them?

Screw that. 15 rounds for Production to align with IPSC. The minority can deal with it however they can.

So, USPSA aligns with IPSC and goes to 15 rounds. Living in Massachusetts, I can own full cap mags manufactured prior to the Clinton Ban. New shooters can own them also if they can find them and afford them which is not easy.

Production was supposed to be an entry level for off the shelf gear to be competitive. By aligning with USPSA, that has been done away with for these new shooters.

Take away the new shooter argument, I can still own and use these mags here. Someone coming from out of state for a championship match cannot. So, an A shooter here now gets an advantage with the 15 round mags over a master from out of state with mag capacity.

Production is not broken.

disclaimer

(My use of me as a comparison is only for purpose of this thread. I am not competitive in any divisions. I am a life long multi generation resident of Ma and I am also not moving so the "screw people from ban states" argument doesn't work with me. Personally, I deal with what I have)

Edited by Round_Gun_Shooter
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Well not to put too fine a point on it, all you need to do is get five BOD members to agree with you and shazzam it shall be.

Not going to happen. Our present BoD has made it loud and clear that they have no plans to dork with the production division. Want to shoot with a red dot - shoot open. Want to shoot with 15 - shoot limited. I suggested permitting stippling on the entire frame instead of just the grip and they just don't want to hear anything that changes Production from the way it is today.

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We already have "Production 10" it's called Limited 10 minor.

Exactly, if you don't count mag wells, mag position, double-action first shot, race holsters, and all other mods allowed in L10 but not in Production. Yea, they're exactly the same.

We need L10 for the same reason we need Open 10.

Production should be limited to 10rds for the same reason Open or Limited should be limited to 10rds.

L10 minor is not a division - it's just a place for someone with poor reloading skills. :roflol:

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So let's see who is limited to 10 rounds or less..........

New York

Massachussetts

Hawaii

California

Connecticut

Maryland

Wow, a grand total of six. So 44 states have to kowtow to six of them?

Screw that. 15 rounds for Production to align with IPSC. The minority can deal with it however they can.

I would study the demographics a tad before making that statement. Add in the states that are on the edge of 10 round limits and the the cross travel of shooters between I think it is a different picture. Have you checked the number of shooters in Production in free states lately? Must be broke??? Leave Production alone.

If you make it just like IPSC, do you really want ALL of Prod IPSC restrictions? My G34 holds 17 rounds! Why are you punishing me by restricting to 15? Seems 15 is just as arbitrary as dumbass 10. But we have to consider the body as a whole and Production right now is just fine in USPSA.

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What is the problem with having Production (with a 15 round limit like the rest of the world) and Production 10 for those (very few) states where 15 is a problem?

lots of people travel to matches out of state.

I wouldn't particularly mind if production went to 15 rounds, but I don't see any real benefit (and I would have to get a new gun since I shoot a 40 in production that only holds 12 rds). If you hate reloading, just shoot limited.

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So let's see who is limited to 10 rounds or less..........

New York

Massachussetts

Hawaii

California

Connecticut

Maryland

Wow, a grand total of six. So 44 states have to kowtow to six of them?

Screw that. 15 rounds for Production to align with IPSC. The minority can deal with it however they can.

How many people are in those states? Why should we want to try to water down the competition at big matches by making it harder for the 25-30% of the US population that lives in those states to compete in production?

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I don't think 15 rounds is a good thing to want. Yes it will give you extra rounds in each shooting position, but not if you think there will be extras when you have a couple of positions to shoot. I cannot tell you how many stages I have shot that require 8 here, 8 there, then 8 at the next place. Drives me nuts to have stages like that all the time, but they are reality. Now in those stages, where are you going to reload? If you plan to do 2 shooting positions before reloading, you have no extra rounds to engage anything, you will be going to slide lock. If you are going to reload between each position, what have you gained? I think this has completely defeated the purpose of having 15 rounds in the mags.

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As I said before, I'll say it again. If 10 rounds in a mag isn't enough for you to get stuff done on a stage the problem isn't in the rules. It's in your shooting and stage management ability.

The original posters arguments are: but I know that new shooters would appreciate the extra rounds when missing steel on a texas star.(learn sight picture and trigger control) I think it would make Production more fun.(fun is subjective. more rounds in a mag doesn't have to equal more fun) I switched my kids over to shooting Limited minor(but you don't care about the scoring hit they took doing this?) with their production guns for this very reason and they were much happier not having to do standing reloads or running out of ammo on a big steel stage.

I'm not trying to stir stuff up either, just saying why I disagree.

Just like single stack was introduced in 2006 (2008 official) to draw CDP shooters into being able to shoot another sport so was Production in 2000 with rules similar to SSP. USPSA and IDPA are a divorced couple still in each others' business it seems. This is apparent in the proposed optics division now for IDPA.

USPSA states themselves the 10rnd rule is to limit the playing field between the different production guns and not as an appeasement to states with magazine laws. While the latter may be party true, they don't come out and say as much.

Oh, and I've traveled to matches in states with mag rules worse than CA! I had to carry in my luggage and on my person a written permit/letter on why I was in their state with a gun and what I'll call regular mags, for the purpose of competition. Either just in transit or staying the night. (am I still in the USA? goodness)

The 10 round rule is just fine. I for one don't want uspsa to align itself more closely to ipsc rules.

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Hey rowdyb...thanks for the advice. I will be sure to tell my 12 year that that he sucks and should focus more on the fundamentals. I just thought if we could make things a little easier on new shooters that more of them might stick round a little longer. I wasn't trying to pick a fight with anyone.

As for having fun...that's everything for me and my kids. If it's not fun then why do it.

I am not defined as a person by how well I do in a USPSA match. It's something I do for fun and am trying to share with my sons. I apologize to anyone I may have offended by being this up.

Edited by mwc
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Hey rowdyb...thanks for the advice. I will be sure to tell my 12 year that that he sucks and should focus more on the fundamentals. I just thought if we could make things a little easier on new shooters that more of them might stick round a little longer. I wasn't trying to pick a fight with anyone.

As for having fun...that's everything for me and my kids. If it's not fun then why do it.

I am not defined as a person by how well I do it a USPSA match. It's something I do for fun and am trying to share with my sons. I apologize to anyone I may have offended by being this up.

Make it as easy as you want, shoot limited or open and put as many rounds in the gun that will fit? And where are all these shooters that are leaving production because its to hard?

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Hey rowdyb...thanks for the advice. I will be sure to tell my 12 year that that he sucks and should focus more on the fundamentals. I just thought if we could make things a little easier on new shooters that more of them might stick round a little longer. I wasn't trying to pick a fight with anyone.

As for having fun...that's everything for me and my kids. If it's not fun then why do it.

I am not defined as a person by how well I do in a USPSA match. It's something I do for fun and am trying to share with my sons. I apologize to anyone I may have offended by being this up.

Might be a better idea to teach him the tactics of shooting a star -- start at the top, shoot the rising plate, if you wind up with one or two wild swingers, figure out where they reverse direction, and have the patience to ambush them there -- and to give him the opportunity in practice sessions to learn how to put shots on a plate on demand.....

Stars are difficult until you figure them out and commit in practice to learning the skills needed to clear them with five or six rounds every time you see them....

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I hurt my strong hand early spring and shot limited minor with a 9 for a match or two versus my .40 major set up. Had a blast and really wasn't at a huge disadvantage at my level 1. Would I do it at a 12 stage major match, probably not. Point is, at my level, shooting minor wasn't as bad in the results column as I thought it would be.

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We already have "Production 10" it's called Limited 10 minor.

No.... Production is Production 10.

I don't see what's so hard to understand about having a division that by rule makes competition about the shooter and not the gun. The round limitation is an arbitrary number. I don't think it matters whether it's 7 rounds, 10 rounds, or 15 rounds. The point is to have everyone adhering to the same gun standard. If you want your gun or ammo capacity to factor in to the competition, shoot a division that allows modification and or unrestricted capacity. The divisons seem just right the way they are, IMO.

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Because production was born to compete with idpa's ssp division. A division with a 10 rnd mag limit. Production was born to bring more shooters in after seeing the success of a "stock" class in another shooting sport. If you make a magazine capacity change then it is harder to cross over between them..

You didn't think this through very well did you?

Let me show you how easy it is for someone who lives in the overwhelming majority of the states with no stupid limits to cross over from IDPA SSP to USPSA Production (with a 15 round limit): stick five more rounds in the magazine.

Man, that was a tough barrier to overcome.........

I have yet to hear a solid, non-refutable reason why USPSA Production should not be 15 rounds like IPSC.

Other than: because 'Murica.....

Take a look through the production gun list and tell me how many guns on that list won't hold 15 rounds. Hint: There are a LOT.

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I see this from 2 different perspectives.

1) new shooter who lacks USPSA type accuracy skills has trouble knocking down a steel array without a standing reload. Yes, they will get frustrated. But newbies should not have such high expectations. Failure to differing degrees are part of the learning curve.

2) ( My personal perspective) reloading is part of the skill set that sets shooters of different levels apart. Reloading skills are important in limited capacity Divisions. I like them because I'm willing to put the time in to improve. So in this regard I like the 10 round capacity limit.

Someone made a great point earlier, due to the typical USPSA 8 round arrays, 15 rounds really gives you no advantage unless you are accuracy challenged (newbie). Sure this is an issue for the newbie, but in my opinion, we as a society are too ingrained to give instant gratification these days, what happened to working to achieve something worthwhile?

10 round is fine for production unless we are going to rid USPSA of 8 round arrays.

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Someone earlier mentioned the few states with capacity limits (only 6) that is not really a good way to look at it, those 6 states account for 24% of the US population so its not just a few states its 1/4th of the country.

I keep hearing about how new shooters have accuracy issues and the extra rounds will help them not get discouraged, I ALWAYS recommend to new shooters to shoot limited for their first few matches, if that means they are shooting a G17 with 17rds loaded in their mags, great now they can concentrate on their shooting instead of stage planning and reloads. Once they have a few matches under their belt they will be able to figure out what division best suits their gear, interests and skill set.

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I see this from 2 different perspectives.

1) new shooter who lacks USPSA type accuracy skills has trouble knocking down a steel array without a standing reload. Yes, they will get frustrated. But newbies should not have such high expectations. Failure to differing degrees are part of the learning curve.

2) ( My personal perspective) reloading is part of the skill set that sets shooters of different levels apart. Reloading skills are important in limited capacity Divisions. I like them because I'm willing to put the time in to improve. So in this regard I like the 10 round capacity limit.

Someone made a great point earlier, due to the typical USPSA 8 round arrays, 15 rounds really gives you no advantage unless you are accuracy challenged (newbie). Sure this is an issue for the newbie, but in my opinion, we as a society are too ingrained to give instant gratification these days, what happened to working to achieve something worthwhile?

10 round is fine for production unless we are going to rid USPSA of 8 round arrays.

^^^ This ^^^

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