motosapiens Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 my litmus test for this skill is very simple: if you can't stand and shoot accuratly at speed, what makes you think it will turn out better while moving? My litmus test for every skill is very simple: Train the most on the low-hanging fruit, where you can gain the most. Train at least a little on EVERYTHING else. I don't see any reason that everyone at every level shouldn't spend a little time each week (dryfire) and each month (live fire) working on shooting while moving, SHO, WHO, very difficult shots, hoser arrays, unloaded starts, and unusual start positions (seated, laying down, in a car, whatever). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 (edited) in principle I would agree but given the amount of time the "ave' shooter has to spend on training I'm still going with becoming really proficient at the fundamentals first then work the other stuff. I consider that the low hanging fruit ... My first year I was working on everything, splitting my time just about evenly. While I progressed, it wasn't very fast. Once I switched to just the fundamentals of shooting accuractly at speed I started to see faster gains. Maybe others can work a little bit on a lot of stuff at the the same time and see great progress ... I can't Edited April 2, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmob50 Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 You will be faster getting in and out of position if you stop bobbing up and down. Start moving as you shoot the last target. Don't wait on the reload. Get the reload done as you bring the gun in. It will take a step and a half or less. i like that idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 (edited) It depends on your level of skill. Some A class even good B class, but M and GM's reload before the FIRST step is completed. It is all about efficiency at these levels... I guess I can try to explain where I'm speaking from, we can multi-task but we can NOT multi-task at our peak ability. I'm talking this reload, you finish one array and you have a distance to cover that you can really move, 7yds plus. Get it done then swing your elbows of your strong hand and dig with your off hand. 2yd reloads I never want be standing in a port without gun loaded up and ready, so i reload faster cause I'm not multi-tasking. But you need to try everything on the timer. Cheers Edited May 22, 2015 by a matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FullMetalJacket Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 I hate seeing standing reloads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 (edited) And that's my exact point. Practicing standing reloads is nice but the real skill to learn is to be able to reload after firing a shot within one or two steps max ... And that is a different skill .... Seeklander has drills he calls 'stepping reloads' to learn this exact skill .... Edited May 24, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Same reload if engaging the same target, same reload if making a big transition without moving your feet, same reload if moving your feet. You will have to practice. If you can make a sub second reload, you can do it with your feet moving, and you will find it's done before you finish the first step. Start moving while you are engaging the last target, and don't be slow to get going as soon as you call the shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 I think we are all drinking the same keg here. Reloads, get it done as fast as you can and get back to the shooting as fast as you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 (edited) I think we are all drinking the same keg here. Reloads, get it done as fast as you can and get back to the shooting as fast as you can. If you are not shooting you are not making points. So do what you can to keep the gun running. Good luck gents... Edited May 26, 2015 by a matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuickMick Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 One major aspect for reloads on the move is how you leave your actual position. My mags are on the left side of my body, so I don't want my left foot move when grabbing a mag -> first step is with the right foot. Next aspect is when you insert the mag into the gun: when you move uprange and your gun is behind you it's obvious you can't insert the mag immediately but when entering the next position. There are three to four "moves" you have to train, and a little bit to observe in stage planning. And yes, it's one of those low hanging fruits..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Agreed, however .... Just becuase you can do a sub one second reload while standing does not mean you can do one when you have to move your feet ....you'll need to practice that specific skil .... Similarly, just becuase you can shoot 25 yd targets well does not mean you can automatically shoot 7 yd hoser targets well, you have to practice both .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kali Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 (edited) People develop skills differently. While advice from the Pros is insightful, you have to make it work for you. For me, I had the concepts of the "non-shooting" skills fairly well developed as a B shooter. While not perfect, my draw, reload, movement skills were above my ranking, and my shooting skills were just average. Those non-shooting skills are much easier and quicker to develop and ingrain than the pure shooting skills which takes time. As I got better, I started spending more time with the shooting skills and only practiced the non-shooting skills as maintanance. Having a foundation of draws, reloads and movement that I could do without thought, allowed me to focus on the shooting. I made GM this year, my draws/reloads/movement is not much better as I was as a B, the gain was in the shooting. In the higher rankings your going to have to do it all anyways, so it doesn't really matter which one you develop first. Edited May 26, 2015 by Kali Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Great point. I tend to think a lot of shooters spend a lot more time then necessary early on focusing on chasing some time goal in draws and reloads instead of spending time on the fundamentals of action 'shooting' ---- which is the ability to shoot accuractly at speed which requires command of fundamentals like trigger control, grip and sight management.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
explosivewhale Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Reload while moving. Get rid of excessive standing around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Agreed, however .... Just becuase you can do a sub one second reload while standing does not mean you can do one when you have to move your feet ....you'll need to practice that specific skil .... Similarly, just becuase you can shoot 25 yd targets well does not mean you can automatically shoot 7 yd hoser targets well, you have to practice both .... I can do a sub second reload while standing, and I find that yes, it in general means I can do one while I am moving my feet. Having a pretty sporty reload also allows you to get away with some funny stage plans (like shooting half of an array and reloading during the half step around a barrel or something) that you probably shouldn't be able to get away with. That is why I do probably 50 dry fire standing reloads a day, at least. I agree that practicing the fundamentals is important. Finding your weakness in the fundamentals, and practicing those a lot is the most important, in my opinion. That is why the past several times I have gone to the range I have focused almost exclusively on shooting groups at longer range. Going along with that is finding what you do well, and practicing so you can exploit that at a match. Shooting on the move is certainly one area a lot of people aren't awesome so if you are, exploit that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) Agreed, however .... Just becuase you can do a sub one second reload while standing does not mean you can do one when you have to move your feet ....you'll need to practice that specific skil .... That's somewhat true, but most of the time, it doesn't really matter how fast your moving reloads are, as long as you are moving and you finish it in time to start shooting early in the next position. Standing reloads OTOH are 100% non-shooting time, so it's good to do them fast. I practice some 1-2 step reloads for those unusually close positions, and I find they aren't really much different from a standing reload in terms of technique and thought process. Edited May 27, 2015 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 ...most of the time, it doesn't really matter how fast your moving reloads are, as long as you are moving and you finish it in time to start shooting early in the next position.... I don't buy this. Stumbling around fumbling your reload is not an efficient use of time. Get it done, and get your eyes on where you are going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 (edited) ...most of the time, it doesn't really matter how fast your moving reloads are, as long as you are moving and you finish it in time to start shooting early in the next position.... I don't buy this. Stumbling around fumbling your reload is not an efficient use of time. Get it done, and get your eyes on where you are going. I never suggested stumbling around fumbling. In fact, that seems like would be a bad plan. I'm assuming a normal person can run and reload at the same time. If you can't do that, then perhaps a different strategy is in order (like practicing until you can run quickly while reloading). Based on bens feedback in class, I modified my reload strategy to start moving first and foremost, then worry about the reload. The result was significantly faster movement and faster stage times. It takes me the same time to move 5 yards between positions whether I reload on the way or not. It even takes the same time to move 2-3 steps regardless of whether I reload or not. All the national class shooters I have observed in every division appear to do the same thing. They don't let the reload slow down their position exit, and their moving reloads are noticeably slower than their standing reloads, but it doesn't matter because they are moving at close to top speed. But everyone should figure out what works best for them using their timer. Edited May 28, 2015 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leemoe83 Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 ...most of the time, it doesn't really matter how fast your moving reloads are, as long as you are moving and you finish it in time to start shooting early in the next position....I don't buy this. Stumbling around fumbling your reload is not an efficient use of time. Get it done, and get your eyes on where you are going. I never suggested stumbling around fumbling. In fact, that seems like would be a bad plan. I'm assuming a normal person can run and reload at the same time. If you can't do that, then perhaps a different strategy is in order (like practicing until you can run quickly while reloading).Based on bens feedback in class, I modified my reload strategy to start moving first and foremost, then worry about the reload. The result was significantly faster movement and faster stage times. It takes me the same time to move 5 yards between positions whether I reload on the way or not. It even takes the same time to move 2-3 steps regardless of whether I reload or not. All the national class shooters I have observed in every division appear to do the same thing. They don't let the reload slow down their position exit, and their moving reloads are noticeably slower than their standing reloads, but it doesn't matter because they are moving at close to top speed. But everyone should figure out what works best for them using their timer. What this guy said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ardo Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 I almost stopped practicing standing reloads. I will do a couple of slow ones, just to make sure my strong-hand elbow is exactly where it needs to be, and that the grip is angled correctly. I would then start doing reloads while moving left/right/forward, trying to complete the reload in 1-2 steps.I practice this on both easy and hard position exits. I see the biggest gains here if the reload is done while accelerating to almost full-speed, if the reload is slowing one's movement down a lot, and takes 3-4 steps to complete, it is as bad as a standing reload. I also practice reloads when there's only one or two steps between positions, like shooting from behind a barricade on the left, doing a reload, and shooting from the right side. Somehow, this is challenging for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooldylocks Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 ...I also practice reloads when there's only one or two steps between positions, like shooting from behind a barricade on the left, doing a reload, and shooting from the right side. Somehow, this is challenging for me. I struggle with barricade reloads too, like the ones you find on classifiers. I think (merely a hypothesis, I haven't tested to find out) it is because there is the wall right there that prevents me from having the gun out away from my body as much as I normally do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ardo Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 ...I also practice reloads when there's only one or two steps between positions, like shooting from behind a barricade on the left, doing a reload, and shooting from the right side. Somehow, this is challenging for me. I struggle with barricade reloads too, like the ones you find on classifiers. I think (merely a hypothesis, I haven't tested to find out) it is because there is the wall right there that prevents me from having the gun out away from my body as much as I normally do. For the wall not to be a problem I think you need to stay away (about an arms-length) from it. This would give you the freedom you need during a reload. I think my issue is a combination of actions that must be crammed into a very short period of time: follow-through, reload while seeing the spot I'm moving to, press out while looking for the target to appear. Feels awkward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greyhounder Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 As one of the masses of shooters most of this information is intended for first thank you for a lot of useful and productive information. I'm a high C shooter know be really lucky to make A,but enjoy the sport most importantly. Having shot with Moto seen how fluid he is on a CoF agree with him and Nimitz. My take on this sort of a synopsis. 1-Most important shoot as fast as you possibly can get As. 2-Be ready to fire the first shot as soon as you can-might not be your best chance for 2 As but be ready. 3-leaving an array,the mag should be dropping out, next one getting ready to load and ready for step 2. 4-PRACTICE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a matt Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 If you just do those 4 thing you will be ahead of most. Good shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 ok, I have to ask .... what is "a high C shooter who is known to be really lucky to make A ..." ......? There's quite a spread between C & A class to use "luck" as an explaination for your classification .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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