joakim Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Hi, I need to speed up my movement between shooting positions. Discussed reloads during movement on the last match and would like to have some more opinions. Lets assume shooting position one and two with a 10meter/yard distance. The comment I got was that you run faster if you reload either when leaving p1 or entering p2 compared to reloading when running in between. In general, would you prefer to reload when exiting or entering a position? Then we have the more complicated cases with movement away from the berm. Safety angles 90 degrees on right side, less on the left side. Start at the x, reload before the second group of four targets (start with 16 rounds). At P1 (x) i shot the lower two, started backing up and shot the upper two targets, dropped mag, and reloaded as I entered P2. Would it be better to reload before turning and running to P2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I run as fast as I can, and reload as quickly as I can ... I don't wait to get somewhere before I reload, and I don't reload before I start running. I try to do both, as fast as I can, at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 The only way YOU are going to know what methods work best for YOU is for YOU to test out all methods. What works best for YOU may not work best for others and vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 The reload pretty much always starts the moment you finishing shooting from one position. If you wait and have a problem wish your reload then you might be caught flat footed finishing a reload at the next position instead of being ready to shoot. As soon at you finish you array that magazine should be dropping and you should be reaching for the new one. There might be a few exceptions but this is the habit you need to build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 why would you want opinions? I recommend getting some facts. They are much more useful tools than opinions. Try it yourself, see what happens. Try reloading at different points. Ben Stoeger recommended to get moving first, then worry about the reload (i was starting my reload immediately and it was delaying my movement). I found his way to be noticeably faster. Your results may vary. Keep in mind that 10 meters (is that how they measure soccer courts?) is not enough time to really get up to speed. I suspect that the biggest time differences are in an explosive start and an efficient entry into the next position, with the gun up and shooting as early as possible. I suspect that old fat guys can make the move just about as fast as spry youngsters despite lacking top speed. That makes me also think that whatever small amount of time I am slowed down by fooling with reload is not as important during the movement as it is during the entry and exit. But don't take my word for it, go get some facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Please don't take anything in said to mean that you don't start moving as well as soon a you get done shooting from one position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joakim Posted June 19, 2014 Author Share Posted June 19, 2014 Thanks guys! Now i am moving too slow and need to train reloads during movement as well as moving fast. Will setup a stage in the basement and try it out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Video time. I had some difficulty entering positions lined up to fire because of some tight shots behind hard cover but hopefully this will give you the idea. My magazine usually drops within a couple of feet from my last shooting position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 One more. Ignore the shooting. Just look at where I start to reload. You don't have much space usually to get that reload done so, yes, start moving but also start that mag change at the same time. ...Also please ignore the music. a friend of mine added that as a bonus and I don't have the original. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRSHKbt5rxA#t=42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 You will be faster getting in and out of position if you stop bobbing up and down. Start moving as you shoot the last target. Don't wait on the reload. Get the reload done as you bring the gun in. It will take a step and a half or less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 You will be faster getting in and out of position if you stop bobbing up and down. Start moving as you shoot the last target. Don't wait on the reload. Get the reload done as you bring the gun in. It will take a step and a half or less. Is that for me or him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I slow roll my movement as I reload, then move quicly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerBaron Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 talking about the stage you posted. assuming production and 15 rounds per mag and loaded start. start with 16, shoot the first array (8 shots), run to second shoot that array (8 shots) perform slide lock reload as you run like hell to the top of the course and if possible (hard to tell from stage image) shoot all 3 targets from the end position (since you have to go there to shoot the last target anyway). Another way: shoot the first array, reload on the way to the second (now have 16 in gun), shoot that array and run up to shoot the final 3 targets (or walk backwards shooting each one, for me I think run to the end then shoot all 3 is faster). that's 14 shots. a GM I know tells me he drops the mag as soon as he fires last shot and starts moving straight away but he wants his reload to be finished before he finishes his first step. he found if it takes longer than that it slows down his running. so yes, start the reload as soon as final shot breaks, and start moving too. try and get it done asap so you can focus on hauling arse to the next position and getting up on target quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) You will be faster getting in and out of position if you stop bobbing up and down. Start moving as you shoot the last target. Don't wait on the reload. Get the reload done as you bring the gun in. It will take a step and a half or less. Is that for me or him? That's for the guy in the vids you posted. You are lowering your center of gravity when you start moving, which is good. Then after you stop at the next position you stand up straight before making a shot. Stop doing that. Stay low while you shoot. You will waste less time setting up at each spot, and be faster to get moving to the next. Edit to add- Watched them again. Slo-mo magnifies the effect. Does not look as bad normal speed. Edited June 21, 2014 by wide45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) Hi, I need to speed up my movement between shooting positions. Discussed reloads during movement on the last match and would like to have some more opinions. Lets assume shooting position one and two with a 10meter/yard distance. The comment I got was that you run faster if you reload either when leaving p1 or entering p2 compared to reloading when running in between. In general, would you prefer to reload when exiting or entering a position? Then we have the more complicated cases with movement away from the berm. stg2.JPG Safety angles 90 degrees on right side, less on the left side. Start at the x, reload before the second group of four targets (start with 16 rounds). At P1 (x) i shot the lower two, started backing up and shot the upper two targets, dropped mag, and reloaded as I entered P2. Would it be better to reload before turning and running to P2? Not before turning, but as you are turning. I would need to see the stage as constructed. Both ways are possible. If I need to watch my footing going around the corner, I don't want to be focused on reloading there. If it's set up so I will be running fast, That's also a bad time to reload. Edited June 21, 2014 by wide45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 You will be faster getting in and out of position if you stop bobbing up and down. Start moving as you shoot the last target. Don't wait on the reload. Get the reload done as you bring the gun in. It will take a step and a half or less. Is that for me or him? That's for the guy in the vids you posted. You are lowering your center of gravity when you start moving, which is good. Then after you stop at the next position you stand up straight before making a shot. Stop doing that. Stay low while you shoot. You will waste less time setting up at each spot, and be faster to get moving to the next.Edit to add- Watched them again. Slo-mo magnifies the effect. Does not look as bad normal speed. Thanks, that's helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glockified Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 A couple of people I have taken courses from recommend getting the reload done in the first one or two steps, then you can take off full speed. I do agree that taking off first and then worrying about the reload can be faster (if you are moving enough distance), but I have seen many who do this and end up at the next position stopped and still have to insert the mag. I like trying to get it done in the first step and then going full speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 A couple of people I have taken courses from recommend getting the reload done in the first one or two steps, then you can take off full speed. I do agree that taking off first and then worrying about the reload can be faster (if you are moving enough distance), but I have seen many who do this and end up at the next position stopped and still have to insert the mag. I like trying to get it done in the first step and then going full speed. I made some pretty dramatic speed gains when I *stopped* trying to get the reload done in the first one or two steps, but it's certainly worth trying both ways and seeing what is faster for you. I have also found that position entry and exit is a LOT more important than top speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 I have had the opportunity to shoot with a variety of GMs and watched a lot of them at Nationals and Area 2 over the years. One of the things I noticed was the mag was out of the gun within a step of leaving a shooting position. They may have been reloading the mag on the way to their next position but they dropped their mag very close to the spot where they were leaving. Their guns were loaded and up in front of their faces by the time they got to the next shooting position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phidelt208 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 So, if you are looking to pick up your pace "having sights on target and ready to fire as soon as the target is available" is hard to beat. Knowing that, it follows to start your reload as soon as possible and get back on the sights. There is little to no reason to wait. pjb45 has it right of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EA308 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 In general, I attempt to reload as fast as I can and then run as fast as I can to the next position if there aren't any targets to shoot while moving. For the particular stage posted, I would engage targets 1-4, reload, then run to T11 and engage targets as they appear moving forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orko Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 On the stage in the example I shot group 1, turned around started running, dropped mag and grabbed a new one in hand. Keep maximum speed around corner and inserted new mag when running straight forward to group 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 (edited) I can't ever imagine a scenario where waiting to execute your reload until you are entering a position made sense .... You want to be shooting at the earliest possible moment as you enter a new position ... Something which would be impossible if you are reloading just before entering a position. I've trained with Stoeger, Anderson and Seelander and all recommend the same basic thing ... Get your reload started and completed as fast as you can once you are going to leave a position and need to reload .... That being said, there almost never is one 'best' way to do anything in this sport. Steve Anderson calls this the 'technique trap' ... Don't get so focused on using the 'right' technique that you forget the only thing that matters in our sport is shooting more points per second than the other guys. This is not Olympic figure skating ... There are no points for technical merit So which method is better for you? I have no idea. I only know which is better for me. Put yourself on the timer and find out for yourself ... You'll be amazed at what other things you learn along the way as well ... Edited September 2, 2014 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 I can't ever imagine a scenario where waiting to execute your reload until you are entering a position made sense I can imagine waiting until you are going forward, for example if you have to retreat 5 yards and then go forward 5 yards to the next position. I just ran some dryfire timed drills tonight and it was significantly faster for me to drop the mag while moving and looking back and then wait to put the new one in until I start going forward again. Your point about timing it is key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Fair enough but for "less unusual" movement scenarios, waiting to reload until you are entering a position isn't a great plan ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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