Would you say anything to a shooter that has his gun in the holster wi

[WidowsSon683]

My first match I was put on a newbie squad. I already had a wealth of firearms safety drilled into me from my ROTC. instructor in high school. A grizzly U.S.M.C. MSgt. from whom I learned never to load, shoot, or take off safe until he said so. That man was deadly accurate at 25' with a chalkboard eraser. I learned competition specifics at the match from the "veterans". While I believe new shooters should be give a little more patience and a briefing on safety before the match a dq is a dq and the serious ones will stick around and WILL come back.

[AICS308]

A new shooter cannot be expected to know the rules before he shoots.

When I started USPSA many years back we had what I don't see much of these days, a new shooter pre match briefing where the rules were discussed and the major important safety rules explained along with the applicable penalties up to and including DQ.

The new shooter was then placed in a squad of experienced shooters and certified ROs who then mentored the shooter through his first match. Imagine, shooters actually helping a new guy learn the basics so he has a great time and most likely will return.

DQ a new shooter at his first match because the jerk wads at the club were to high and mighty to help a new guy!

Sounds like we may be going the way of another dumb _ _ _ organization.

As stated before I'm not going to specifics but there is alot wrong here. Again enforce the rules which If they know enough to know is uspsa then they need to take 20 min and read the rule book. The whole "just show up"mentality helps no one.

You don't show up to a pick up basketball game and not know the basic rules. We run at full speed with loaded guns, Jesus I don't think it is too much to ask to read a rule book even the boring parts of match admin. If one can't be bothered with that then please stay home.

My USPSA # is FY29937 which I got sometime in 1996. Let's see we are somewhere in the 80000's now with not that many active in the sport. But we will assume all are shooting currently. Eighteen years and 50000 new members is about 2778 new members a year which probably less than half are still shooting. Sounds like we are doing a great job of growing the sport.

I have seen too many new shooters come one time and not come back because all they are told is to "Make Ready". I've seen too many experienced shooters with attitude towards new shooters.

If this sport is to grow we need shooters and clubs who will explain rules and safety to the new guys. And when the new guy puts a loaded gun in a holster with the safety off will instruct the guy to remedy the problem, tell the rule which prohibits this and that it results in a match DQ, but for today you are learning.

Put more simply the RO should know if the guy is new and should never have let him holster an unsafe firearm!

[AICS308]

A new shooter cannot be expected to know the rules before he shoots...

I respectfully disagree.

Chris

I do understand your view. I have competed in many different sports and learning the rules is a continual process. You may be the exception with regard to USPSA rule book and I think that admirable, but it is the exception. Look at your own club and think about it. Do all the shooters at your club know the rule book completely?

[deacon12224]

I guess that I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that there are people who would intentionally disregard safety rules. A bullet from a first time shooter's gun can kill you just as easily as a bullet from a GM's gun. USPSA has an outstanding safety record exactly because of the very specific safety rules that we operate under. You cannot compare what we do to basketball, baseball, or any other sport. We use guns. Things designed to kill people. This game requires big boy pants. There cannot be any leeway in enforcing safety rules. Period. DQ the shooter, explain what he did wrong, and invite him to the next match.

[Poppa Bear]

Just to get picky, some of the fault could also lie with the RO. When I am running a 1911/2011 shooter I am watching for the upwards thumb movement that signifies the application of the safety. I have stopped one or two shooters before they could holster to verify that the safety was engaged. New shooters have enough stress just trying to make it through the match while remembering the basics. I expect them to forget things as the match goes on, and I try to anticipate the DQ'able errors before they can commit them. In every case they appreciated me reminding them or stopping them because the adrenaline rush has turned their brain to mush.

I can also appreciate what they are going through because I just started training into a new area of operations at work. That first week it was trying to learn how everything functioned, keep it functioning, and all the while documenting the numbers. How do the others make it look so easy??? Now I have the basics down and I make that look easy, but I still need assistance at problems that might show up only once a week or month. As the months and years go by my experience level will increase to where I will be the one teaching the newer people how to fix the problems. We as RO's need to remember that we were all new shooters at one time ourselves.

[Thomas H]

A new shooter cannot be expected to know the rules before he shoots...

I respectfully disagree.

Chris

I do understand your view. I have competed in many different sports and learning the rules is a continual process. You may be the exception with regard to USPSA rule book and I think that admirable, but it is the exception. Look at your own club and think about it. Do all the shooters at your club know the rule book completely?

Strawman. There is a significantly difference between knowing the basic rules of a sport, and knowing the rulebook completely. And like every other sport out there, competitors are expected to know the basic rules, in particular the basic safety rules, when they come to compete. If someone doesn't know the safety rules, that doesn't mean we ignore the safety rules. (If someone doesn't know the scoring rules, we don't change them, do we? So we don't hurt their feelings?)

DQ a new shooter at his first match because the jerk wads at the club were to high and mighty to help a new guy!

Right, because the given information is enough for you to know that no help was given, that they were jerk wads, and acting all high and mighty.

Oh wait, you have no information regarding that at all.

I'm all for safety briefings (for example, we have safety/new shooter briefings at my club prior to every match), and giving help to new shooters. This doesn't change the fact that we apply the safety rules correctly.

Regarding the other stuff you said:

Sounds like we are doing a great job of growing the sport.

Well, if you look at the latest membership report, we are. You know, if you actually pay attention to statistics.

I have seen too many new shooters come one time and not come back because all they are told is to "Make Ready". I've seen too many experienced shooters with attitude towards new shooters.

Sounds like you need to shoot at a different club. Or start a movement to be more helpful to new folks at your club.

If this sport is to grow we need shooters and clubs who will explain rules and safety to the new guys.

So, do you do this? Do you run new shooter briefings? Offer seminars in how to shoot USPSA competition? Put together a committee to welcome new shooters, and keep them coming back?

All of those are good, useful, helpful things. So---are you complaining, or are you doing it?

And when the new guy puts a loaded gun in a holster with the safety off will instruct the guy to remedy the problem, tell the rule which prohibits this and that it results in a match DQ, but for today you are learning.

Ignoring the safety rules isn't a good plan.

Put more simply the RO should know if the guy is new and should never have let him holster an unsafe firearm!

Gun handling is the responsibility of the shooter. Period. Plus, I can think of numerous cases in which a shooter has performed a sequences of actions in such a fashion that stopping them in the middle simply wasn't going to happen, due to a combination of timing and position.

I certainly agree with you that most new shooters need help, and more help and information should be given to them. This, however, is a completely separate issue from whether or not we are going to enforce the safety rules in the middle of a match.

You want to ignore safety violations? Go ahead. But please post that in your match announcements so that the rest of us will know. (If your response to that was "but less people will come to our matches" the answer is "well duh"--no one wants to go to a match where the people won't be acting in a safe fashion.)

[Carmoney]

I think everybody needs to take a deep breath.

I am certainly in favor of administering all of our rules fairly and consistently, but let's think for a second about the specific infraction we're talking about here. Here's a quick quiz:

Q: What happens when a cocked-and-unlocked 1911 with competition trigger job is placed into a belt holster?

A: The same thing that happens when a loaded Glock with competition trigger job is placed into a belt holster--nothing.

Note that in either case, the gun will discharge if 2 or 3 pounds of pressure is applied to the trigger face. They are exactly equivalent in terms of safety--but one is perfectly legal, and the other earns you a DQ from the match. Pretty arbitrary, when you think about it.

Again, I'm in favor of the rule, and I think it should be enforced, but all the rhetoric about the horrific levels of danger involved, and bullets being fired down legs because shirttails brushed against triggers--all that stuff is way overblown.

[B_Seehawer]

B_Seehawer really? What is different about a Level I and II match as it pertains to safety rules?

Yes, I read the entire rule book several times before I ever attended my first match, did you?

When I say "club match", I'm referencing the weekly practice match that most clubs have. Level I and higher SHOULD be strictly enforced.

Not cover to cover. I've looked up certain stuff but all the safety stuff was explained to me before and during my first stage.

[AICS308]

I guess that I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that there are people who would intentionally disregard safety rules. A bullet from a first time shooter's gun can kill you just as easily as a bullet from a GM's gun. USPSA has an outstanding safety record exactly because of the very specific safety rules that we operate under. You cannot compare what we do to basketball, baseball, or any other sport. We use guns. Things designed to kill people. This game requires big boy pants. There cannot be any leeway in enforcing safety rules. Period. DQ the shooter, explain what he did wrong, and invite him to the next match.

No one is advocating disregard for the rules. Merely correcting a situation before the buzzer in the hopes of teaching a new guy at his first match. Have you never seen the RO correct a situation before the buzzer. I have, and it has been me a few times that was corrected, forgot my ears, forgot my glasses.. It was greatly appreciated and I learned from it. As most of us here i have had my DQ for an AD, not a problem.

If you would rather DQ the guy first time up then do so, that would be the call by the rules. If I were in the situation I would correct the situation because I let it happen as the RO.

[AICS308]

A new shooter cannot be expected to know the rules before he shoots...

I respectfully disagree.

Chris

I do understand your view. I have competed in many different sports and learning the rules is a continual process. You may be the exception with regard to USPSA rule book and I think that admirable, but it is the exception. Look at your own club and think about it. Do all the shooters at your club know the rule book completely?

Strawman. There is a significantly difference between knowing the basic rules of a sport, and knowing the rulebook completely. And like every other sport out there, competitors are expected to know the basic rules, in particular the basic safety rules, when they come to compete. If someone doesn't know the safety rules, that doesn't mean we ignore the safety rules. (If someone doesn't know the scoring rules, we don't change them, do we? So we don't hurt their feelings?)

DQ a new shooter at his first match because the jerk wads at the club were to high and mighty to help a new guy!

Right, because the given information is enough for you to know that no help was given, that they were jerk wads, and acting all high and mighty.

Oh wait, you have no information regarding that at all.

I'm all for safety briefings (for example, we have safety/new shooter briefings at my club prior to every match), and giving help to new shooters. This doesn't change the fact that we apply the safety rules correctly.

Regarding the other stuff you said:

Sounds like we are doing a great job of growing the sport.

Well, if you look at the latest membership report, we are. You know, if you actually pay attention to statistics.

I have seen too many new shooters come one time and not come back because all they are told is to "Make Ready". I've seen too many experienced shooters with attitude towards new shooters.

Sounds like you need to shoot at a different club. Or start a movement to be more helpful to new folks at your club.

If this sport is to grow we need shooters and clubs who will explain rules and safety to the new guys.

So, do you do this? Do you run new shooter briefings? Offer seminars in how to shoot USPSA competition? Put together a committee to welcome new shooters, and keep them coming back?

All of those are good, useful, helpful things. So---are you complaining, or are you doing it?

And when the new guy puts a loaded gun in a holster with the safety off will instruct the guy to remedy the problem, tell the rule which prohibits this and that it results in a match DQ, but for today you are learning.

Ignoring the safety rules isn't a good plan.

Put more simply the RO should know if the guy is new and should never have let him holster an unsafe firearm!

Gun handling is the responsibility of the shooter. Period. Plus, I can think of numerous cases in which a shooter has performed a sequences of actions in such a fashion that stopping them in the middle simply wasn't going to happen, due to a combination of timing and position.

I certainly agree with you that most new shooters need help, and more help and information should be given to them. This, however, is a completely separate issue from whether or not we are going to enforce the safety rules in the middle of a match.

You want to ignore safety violations? Go ahead. But please post that in your match announcements so that the rest of us will know. (If your response to that was "but less people will come to our matches" the answer is "well duh"--no one wants to go to a match where the people won't be acting in a safe fashion.)

1. Just going on info provided.

2. I have read the latest post from USPSA. If you think the growth is acceptable fine. I personally hoped for much greater growth which would increase the pull of USPSA in the shooting community.

3. I was not referring to my club but my experience over 18 years. I been to many different clubs over the years but have been fortunate to have an excellent local club that is in the process of gowing.

4. I did think about that after my first post. I do help new guys when I can by going over the basics as they shoot each stage of the first match. This is not in an offical club position but after your comment i will take it to heart. So yes i quess i am just complaining. Thanks to your comment I will contact my MD and volunteer to do this.

5. Was it his fault or the RO for allowing an unsafe act and not calling it to the shooters attention before going in the holster?

6. Please do not take this personal but merely as an example but your attitude is exactly what I was refering to about high and mighty shooters.

Nothing personal.

[deacon12224]

I guess that I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that there are people who would intentionally disregard safety rules. A bullet from a first time shooter's gun can kill you just as easily as a bullet from a GM's gun. USPSA has an outstanding safety record exactly because of the very specific safety rules that we operate under. You cannot compare what we do to basketball, baseball, or any other sport. We use guns. Things designed to kill people. This game requires big boy pants. There cannot be any leeway in enforcing safety rules. Period. DQ the shooter, explain what he did wrong, and invite him to the next match.

No one is advocating disregard for the rules. Merely correcting a situation before the buzzer in the hopes of teaching a new guy at his first match. Have you never seen the RO correct a situation before the buzzer. I have, and it has been me a few times that was corrected, forgot my ears, forgot my glasses.. It was greatly appreciated and I learned from it. As most of us here i have had my DQ for an AD, not a problem.

If you would rather DQ the guy first time up then do so, that would be the call by the rules. If I were in the situation I would correct the situation because I let it happen as the RO.

Actually, you are advocating disregarding the rules. You just said the call by the rules is a DQ, but you would not do that. Hence, disregard. If you think new shooters, however you define that, should have a different set of safety rules, you should contact headquarters and see if we can get a change to the rulebook. Until then, we don't get to decide what rules we like.

[AICS308]

I guess that I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that there are people who would intentionally disregard safety rules. A bullet from a first time shooter's gun can kill you just as easily as a bullet from a GM's gun. USPSA has an outstanding safety record exactly because of the very specific safety rules that we operate under. You cannot compare what we do to basketball, baseball, or any other sport. We use guns. Things designed to kill people. This game requires big boy pants. There cannot be any leeway in enforcing safety rules. Period. DQ the shooter, explain what he did wrong, and invite him to the next match.

No one is advocating disregard for the rules. Merely correcting a situation before the buzzer in the hopes of teaching a new guy at his first match. Have you never seen the RO correct a situation before the buzzer. I have, and it has been me a few times that was corrected, forgot my ears, forgot my glasses.. It was greatly appreciated and I learned from it. As most of us here i have had my DQ for an AD, not a problem.

If you would rather DQ the guy first time up then do so, that would be the call by the rules. If I were in the situation I would correct the situation because I let it happen as the RO.

Actually, you are advocating disregarding the rules. You just said the call by the rules is a DQ, but you would not do that. Hence, disregard. If you think new shooters, however you define that, should have a different set of safety rules, you should contact headquarters and see if we can get a change to the rulebook. Until then, we don't get to decide what rules we like.

I guess that I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that there are people who would intentionally disregard safety rules. A bullet from a first time shooter's gun can kill you just as easily as a bullet from a GM's gun. USPSA has an outstanding safety record exactly because of the very specific safety rules that we operate under. You cannot compare what we do to basketball, baseball, or any other sport. We use guns. Things designed to kill people. This game requires big boy pants. There cannot be any leeway in enforcing safety rules. Period. DQ the shooter, explain what he did wrong, and invite him to the next match.

No one is advocating disregard for the rules. Merely correcting a situation before the buzzer in the hopes of teaching a new guy at his first match. Have you never seen the RO correct a situation before the buzzer. I have, and it has been me a few times that was corrected, forgot my ears, forgot my glasses.. It was greatly appreciated and I learned from it. As most of us here i have had my DQ for an AD, not a problem.

If you would rather DQ the guy first time up then do so, that would be the call by the rules. If I were in the situation I would correct the situation because I let it happen as the RO.

Actually, you are advocating disregarding the rules. You just said the call by the rules is a DQ, but you would not do that. Hence, disregard. If you think new shooters, however you define that, should have a different set of safety rules, you should contact headquarters and see if we can get a change to the rulebook. Until then, we don't get to decide what rules we like.

A new shooter comes to the line and is given make ready. I as RO observe the gun safety is not engaged. I fix the situation with explanation and the guys shoots. Thats the way I will do it.

Observe your next match and make it a point to see as many infractions as possible. My example would be rule 10.5.6 with a legal belt holster and the shooter breaks the 3 foot rule while holstering a loaded firearm. Seen it many times but never seen a DQ given. Doesn't make it right but it happens.

[Outbreak]

I think I had shot at least one match, maybe two before I even learned the sport was called USPSA. It would have been really hard to find the rule book back then.

I'm not an RO, but I play one at club matches since I don't think we have a certified one at our club. I make sure I explain the range commands during the safety briefing, with emphasis on not doing anything unless he's specifically told, and if there's any uncertainty, ASK.

[Fireant]

So, with that thinking if a new shooter breaks the 180, you simply correct him and let him shoot on? You let him break the 180 as the RO correct? There are only certain commands we are allowed to say/give when we take the RO hat. I don't recall any of them being "hey buddy, put the safety on before you holster." The new shooter at your club may be an experienced shooter that just moved in and is expecting the actual commands. They are what they are for a reason(I shoot in a state with a lot of foreign shooters, so English is not always their first language) provide a safety briefing at the beginning, don't RO with a vengeance, and the let rule book be your guide.

[Thomas H]

Wow, that was just about impossible to read.

1. Just going on info provided.

No, you assumed a lot of things based your personal opinion, that had no actual factual basis. (That's the good thing about forums like this---you can go back and read exactly what was written.)

2. I have read the latest post from USPSA. If you think the growth is acceptable fine. I personally hoped for much greater growth which would increase the pull of USPSA in the shooting community.

Ah, so there IS growth, just not enough to be acceptable to you? That's not what you originally said.

3. I was not referring to my club but my experience over 18 years. I been to many different clubs over the years but have been fortunate to have an excellent local club that is in the process of gowing.

So, you've seen lots of new shooters DQed for reasons like this? How many of them came back? Do you know, or are you just assuming that they all got completely turned off by it?

4. I did think about that after my first post. I do help new guys when I can by going over the basics as they shoot each stage of the first match. This is not in an offical club position but after your comment i will take it to heart. So yes i quess i am just complaining. Thanks to your comment I will contact my MD and volunteer to do this.

Sounds good. More clubs should have an official "new shooter buddy," I think.

5. Was it his fault or the RO for allowing an unsafe act and not calling it to the shooters attention before going in the holster?

Apparently you are ignoring where I said "Gun handling is the responsibility of the shooter. Period. Plus, I can think of numerous cases in which a shooter has performed a sequences of actions in such a fashion that stopping them in the middle simply wasn't going to happen, due to a combination of timing and position. "

....of which, the first two sentences are straight from NROI, yes? While the RO can attempt to help, in certain circumstances, in the end, gun handling is the shooter's responsibility. So no, it wasn't the RO's fault. At all.

6. Please do not take this personal but merely as an example but your attitude is exactly what I was refering to about high and mighty shooters.

Nothing personal.

Right, right. "You are an example of what I'm talking about, but don't take that personally."

That's okay---I think that your choice about disregarding safety rules is an extremely bad idea (not to mention actually also taking any club that does it away from having official USPSA status---after all, if the match isn't by USPSA rules, then it isn't a USPSA match) and I certainly hope I don't ever have to shoot at a club where the ROs make choices on whether or not to follow the safety rules based on how "new" they think the shooter is, or whatever else criterion they are using at the time.

If "high and mighty" equates to "following the rules as stated" then I'm fine with that. I am certain that the shooters I've been to matches with MUCH prefer people to follow the rules, particular with respect to safety.

As deacon said: "Actually, you are advocating disregarding the rules. You just said the call by the rules is a DQ, but you would not do that. Hence, disregard. If you think new shooters, however you define that, should have a different set of safety rules, you should contact headquarters and see if we can get a change to the rulebook. Until then, we don't get to decide what rules we like."

You replied to that with an argument about other things---but didn't address the basic issue which he stated clearly: You are advocating disregarding safety rules.

You've been an RO for a little over a year---do you actually run matches like this?

[Thomas H]

So, with that thinking if a new shooter breaks the 180, you simply correct him and let him shoot on? You let him break the 180 as the RO correct? There are only certain commands we are allowed to say/give when we take the RO hat. I don't recall any of them being "hey buddy, put the safety on before you holster." The new shooter at your club may be an experienced shooter that just moved in and is expecting the actual commands. They are what they are for a reason(I shoot in a state with a lot of foreign shooters, so English is not always their first language) provide a safety briefing at the beginning, don't RO with a vengeance, and the let rule book be your guide.

Technically, 8.6.1 and 8.6.2.1 gives the RO the ability to actually help out---but only up to a point.

8.6.1: No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

8.6.2.1: When approved by the Range Officer, competitors at Level I matches may, without penalty, receive whatever coaching or assistance they request.

...so by 8.6.1, IF the RO sees it in time, before the competitor has taken their hand off the gun, (for a relevant example), the RO can give a "safety warning" to a competitor who is about to have a firearm holstered but not on safe. However, if the RO doesn't see it in time, or doesn't have time to say it, it isn't the RO's fault, and the safety infraction has still occurred.

In a similar fashion, by 8.6.2.1, for a new shooter who has requested help with the make ready situation the RO may indeed help them with the sequence of events, including saying "remember to put the safety on before you holster."

Again, however, if the RO doesn't do so and the competitor commits a safety infraction, it isn't the RO's fault, and it is still a safety violation.

So, there are cases in which a new shooter can be given help as necessary. However, none of that changes the consequences if safety infractions actually occur.

[AICS308]

So, with that thinking if a new shooter breaks the 180, you simply correct him and let him shoot on? You let him break the 180 as the RO correct? There are only certain commands we are allowed to say/give when we take the RO hat. I don't recall any of them being "hey buddy, put the safety on before you holster." The new shooter at your club may be an experienced shooter that just moved in and is expecting the actual commands. They are what they are for a reason(I shoot in a state with a lot of foreign shooters, so English is not always their first language) provide a safety briefing at the beginning, don't RO with a vengeance, and the let rule book be your guide.

Fireant,

Who said anything on the 180. Keep the discussion on the topic. We can bring up thousands of what ifs.

[AICS308]

Wow, that was just about impossible to read.

You replied to that with an argument about other things---but didn't address the basic issue which he stated clearly: You are advocating disregarding safety rules.

You've been an RO for a little over a year---do you actually run matches like this?

Dear Thomas H,

Yes i am a new RO, and no I do not run matches. I rarely RO due to the fact that I am returning after a lengthy absence from USPSA and am myself trying to get back to where i was years ago. As in reading the rule book many times to get it in memory.

Sounds like I really put a burr under your saddle. Too bad!

This is what I call a situation were we have to agee to disagree.

You win, you are the best, you know everything, you are the HIGH and MIGHTY USPSA shooter.

I hope you can understand this.....there are places where the sun dont shine!

Regards,

[motosapiens]

I think thomasH and AICS308 should be able to have a group hug and agree that comprehensive new-shooter briefing before the match is a good idea (and may remove the need for this difference of opinion).

I've certainly learned some things from this discussion to add to my new shooters briefing.

[JAFO]

Ditto on things to add.

[A-shot]

My first match I was put on a newbie squad. I already had a wealth of firearms safety drilled into me from my ROTC. instructor in high school. A grizzly U.S.M.C. MSgt. from whom I learned never to load, shoot, or take off safe until he said so. That man was deadly accurate at 25' with a chalkboard eraser. I learned competition specifics at the match from the "veterans". While I believe new shooters should be give a little more patience and a briefing on safety before the match a dq is a dq and the serious ones will stick around and WILL come back.

A dq is a dq, and that is awesome that people helped you when you started. To this day, I tell myself that I can get sent home any given Sunday. When it happens, it'll happen. I went through quite a bit of mandatory instruction before I was allowed to shoot a match.

[cnote]

I think everybody needs to take a deep breath.I am certainly in favor of administering all of our rules fairly and consistently, but let's think for a second about the specific infraction we're talking about here. Here's a quick quiz:Q: What happens when a cocked-and-unlocked 1911 with competition trigger job is placed into a belt holster?A: The same thing that happens when a loaded Glock with competition trigger job is placed into a belt holster--nothing.Note that in either case, the gun will discharge if 2 or 3 pounds of pressure is applied to the trigger face. They are exactly equivalent in terms of safety--but one is perfectly legal, and the other earns you a DQ from the match. Pretty arbitrary, when you think about it.Again, I'm in favor of the rule, and I think it should be enforced, but all the rhetoric about the horrific levels of danger involved, and bullets being fired down legs because shirttails brushed against triggers--all that stuff is way overblown.

Brilliant

Edited March 20, 2014 by cnote

[Sarge]

I think everybody needs to take a deep breath.I am certainly in favor of administering all of our rules fairly and consistently, but let's think for a second about the specific infraction we're talking about here. Here's a quick quiz:Q: What happens when a cocked-and-unlocked 1911 with competition trigger job is placed into a belt holster?A: The same thing that happens when a loaded Glock with competition trigger job is placed into a belt holster--nothing.Note that in either case, the gun will discharge if 2 or 3 pounds of pressure is applied to the trigger face. They are exactly equivalent in terms of safety--but one is perfectly legal, and the other earns you a DQ from the match. Pretty arbitrary, when you think about it.Again, I'm in favor of the rule, and I think it should be enforced, but all the rhetoric about the horrific levels of danger involved, and bullets being fired down legs because shirttails brushed against triggers--all that stuff is way overblown.

Brilliant

But the legitimate argument of "It's against the rules so it's a DQ", didn't fly to some. This whole thing should have been two posts long. Post one- What happens if......? Post two- DQ per rule yadda yadda. End of story!

And by the way, I had a very nice trigger in my 34 and it was nothing near my 2011. So that argument only goes so far really.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Sarge

[Nik Habicht]

There are only certain commands we are allowed to say/give when we take the RO hat.

Pretty sure you can give any safety warning you desire or deem necessary......

[Thomas H]

Dear Thomas H,

Yes i am a new RO, and no I do not run matches. I rarely RO due to the fact that I am returning after a lengthy absence from USPSA and am myself trying to get back to where i was years ago. As in reading the rule book many times to get it in memory.

Sounds like I really put a burr under your saddle. Too bad!

This is what I call a situation were we have to agee to disagree.

You win, you are the best, you know everything, you are the HIGH and MIGHTY USPSA shooter.

I hope you can understand this.....there are places where the sun dont shine!

Regards,

I just see a problem when I hear an RO deciding not to follow, apply, and enforce the rules of USPSA. I'm finding it interesting that you continue to have an emotional problem with me (as evidenced by your comments about "high and mighty") but this isn't supposed to be a win/lose situation. Sorry to hear you think it is that way. On the other hand, that's your problem, not mine.

I confess I don't understand how someone can continually argue against a clearly stated safety rule. But hey, to each their own.

Hope no one gets shot.

As I've said, new shooter/safety briefings prior to the regular shooter's meeting is a good thing, and can make a solid difference with respect to shooter safety. Wish more clubs did it, and I applaud those that do.

However, I don't think that will ever "remove the need for this difference of opinion" because some people don't listen and don't learn until something goes wrong---which is why for many people, that safety DQ is a wakeup call about something they've never noticed about their own practice. (And a needed wakeup call, at that.)

A quick question to everyone: How many times have you told a shooter after they've run a stage that they really need to keep their finger out of the trigger guard and they say back "I do not!" ---amazing how people will IGNORE any suggestion that their practice isn't perfect. And they'll argue with you about what you saw!

That DQ is often a strong enough wakeup call that they actually pay attention.

Sarge had it right:

This whole thing should have been two posts long. Post one- What happens if......? Post two- DQ per rule yadda yadda. End of story!