Would you say anything to a shooter that has his gun in the holster wi

[Fireant]

Thanks Sarge, I hate being called a rule Nazi for following the rule book. When I show up to a USPSA match I do so expecting the rules of that game to be followed and that includes the safety rules. My family and the families of everyone that shows up to shoot the match expect us to return home with the same number of holes in our bodies as we left with. I guess some of you have never watched helplessly as some new guy with questionable gear, a 1911 with a home trigger job, goes and does a speed load and holster fast enough to impress the best shooters out there only to have his shirt get caught up in the trigger and his fobus holster and put a round right down his thigh into the ground at your feet because the safety was off. Now tell me again how holstering a gun without the safety on is still safe.

[OUshooter]

Thanks Sarge, I hate being called a rule Nazi for following the rule book. When I show up to a USPSA match I do so expecting the rules of that game to be followed and that includes the safety rules. My family and the families of everyone that shows up to shoot the match expect us to return home with the same number of holes in our bodies as we left with. I guess some of you have never watched helplessly as some new guy with questionable gear, a 1911 with a home trigger job, goes and does a speed load and holster fast enough to impress the best shooters out there only to have his shirt get caught up in the trigger and his fobus holster and put a round right down his thigh into the ground at your feet because the safety was off. Now tell me again how holstering a gun without the safety on is still safe.

I'm not going to touch what is wrong here, but will add that a DQ of a new/1st timer is not a death sentence on their USPSA career. If they dq then they dq, simple as that.

[B_Seehawer]

Interestingly enough, I've never met a brand new shooter that has a 1911 with a 2lb trigger. Nice excuse.

Apparently you are confused with LII & LIII matches vs. club level matches.

[B_Seehawer]

I'd like to venture a poll here on how many regular posters here read the entire rulebook before they shot a single stage.

Did you?

[ac4wordplay]

I'd like to venture a poll here on how many regular posters here read the entire rulebook before they shot a single stage.

Did you?

Prior to my first shot fired at a USPSA match, I read:

• all of chapter 10, paying close attention to everything that could end my day prematurely
• almost all of chapters 5, 8, and 9
• all of chapter 10, paying close attention to everything that could end my day prematurely (again)

[ac4wordplay]

We play a game (USPSA) that uses firearms. If a person screws up, they could injure or kill themselves. Worse yet, they could injure or kill someone else - someone who hasn't screwed up.

Why wouldn't we want (require?) new participants to be familiar with (knowledgeable of?) safety rules?

I don't care if a new competitor doesn't understand scoring, penalties, rules pertaining to equipment/divisions they don't shoot, popper calibration, or any number of other things - I'm happy to teach them during the match. Rules regarding safety, and things that warrant a DQ, are things they should learn prior to showing up for the match.

If it's too difficult for a new participant to read parts of the rulebook on their own and they need to be spoon-fed, then we can offer "new-participant orientation" classes for them.

Edited March 18, 2014 by ac4wordplay

[Nik Habicht]

New shooter or experienced shooter, local match or major match it is still a DQ. We do not get to pick and choose when, where and for whom we apply the rules.

I'm glad you don't shoot at my club. Rule Nazis tend to scare away new shooters. Do you seriously expect new shooters to see an advertisement or a club demo of uspsa and think to themselves " I should read the rulebook" before they show up? No. Especially when other club members encourage them to just "show up with gear" as is often the advice given here.

In my opinion, that would be a dick move that would scare away potential uspsa paying members.

I'm not an RO so my opinion basically means nothing but if we could teach a new shooter about the rules while still being safe isn't there some value in that? Shooter loads his pistol, cocks the hammer but does not engage the safety and then holsters the gun and releases his grip .... At this point the RO then informs him that he has just committed a DQ offense, explains everything to him, has him correct his error and then allows him to shoot the CoF and tell him this was his one and only free pass .... Safety was not compromised and the new shooter got to continue to shoot the match and go home happy, probably to come back .... Everyone wins ......???

^^This is a positive experience for new members.

Those are hardly the only options though......

As far as new shooters are concerned, if you aren't doing some kind of new shooter orientation during which you cover the pertinent safety rules, and shooting a safety check to ensure that the newbies know their platform and can follow RO commands -- you're doing everyone a disservice.....

[Nik Habicht]

I'd like to venture a poll here on how many regular posters here read the entire rulebook before they shot a single stage.

Did you?

Yes, for IDPA, GSSF and USPSA......

No for Bianchi and Steel -- but I didn't attempt any of those until I had 1.5 years of IDPA experience at minimum.....

And again -- new shooter orientation. They covered these topics when I went through mine in 2001.....

[Nik Habicht]

Interestingly enough, I've never met a brand new shooter that has a 1911 with a 2lb trigger. Nice excuse.

Apparently you are confused with LII & LIII matches vs. club level matches.

I've never met a brand new shooter with one, but I've met brand new competitors with heavily modified guns.....

[Nik Habicht]

We play a game (USPSA) that uses firearms. If a person screws up, they could injure or kill themselves. Worse yet, they could injure or kill someone else - someone who hasn't screwed up.

Why wouldn't we want (require?) new participants to be familiar with (knowledgeable of?) safety rules?

I don't care if a new competitor doesn't understand scoring, penalties, rules pertaining to equipment/divisions they don't shoot, popper calibration, or any number of other things - I'm happy to teach them during the match. Rules regarding safety, and things that warrant a DQ, are things they should learn prior to showing up for the match.

If it's too difficult for a new participant to read parts of the rulebook on their own and they need to be spoon-fed, then we can offer "new-participant orientation" classes for them.

I'm 90% on board with that. Prior rules familiarity is a plus, but new shooter orientation and safety check -- that really makes me happy....

[B_Seehawer]

So, to your average gun mag reading guy. Cocked and locked is preached. Our rules say hammer down but Jesus Jeff Cooper almighty says that the 1911 should be cocked and Locked.

Seriously, I ran into this with a first time shooter and sent him to the safety area with supervision after I (as the RO) saw his hammer was cocked. I instructed him to "show clear" and holster before I sent him away.

Our club encourages new members to show up on our practice nights. I encourage new members to "just shoot" the night they show up. We don't have many newbs, so it's pretty easy to pair up a new shooter with an experienced one.

[B_Seehawer]

We play a game (USPSA) that uses firearms. If a person screws up, they could injure or kill themselves. Worse yet, they could injure or kill someone else - someone who hasn't screwed up.

Why wouldn't we want (require?) new participants to be familiar with (knowledgeable of?) safety rules?

I don't care if a new competitor doesn't understand scoring, penalties, rules pertaining to equipment/divisions they don't shoot, popper calibration, or any number of other things - I'm happy to teach them during the match. Rules regarding safety, and things that warrant a DQ, are things they should learn prior to showing up for the match.

If it's too difficult for a new participant to read parts of the rulebook on their own and they need to be spoon-fed, then we can offer "new-participant orientation" classes for them.

I'm 90% on board with that. Prior rules familiarity is a plus, but new shooter orientation and safety check -- that really makes me happy....

What is your 10% exception?

[Thomas H]

So, to your average gun mag reading guy. Cocked and locked is preached. Our rules say hammer down but Jesus Jeff Cooper almighty says that the 1911 should be cocked and Locked.

Seriously, I ran into this with a first time shooter and sent him to the safety area with supervision after I (as the RO) saw his hammer was cocked. I instructed him to "show clear" and holster before I sent him away.

Our club encourages new members to show up on our practice nights. I encourage new members to "just shoot" the night they show up. We don't have many newbs, so it's pretty easy to pair up a new shooter with an experienced one.

None of which is germane to the topic at hand, really.

Unless, of course, you are actually saying that club matches should have different rules than higher level matches with respect to safety? Or perhaps you feel that certain safety rules aren't as important as others, and because of that, you'll simply make the calls you agree with?

Apparently you are confused with LII & LIII matches vs. club level matches.

Apparently you consider them different things from the viewpoint of safety.

Many people don't.

In the case of the OP, I would attempt to mention to them before they completed holstering and released the firearm that they needed to apply the safety, if they were a new shooter. But I'll note that I have indeed DQed a new shooter for this exact situation---who came to the match with a multi-thousand-dollar Limited rig including a Limited gun from a very high-priced gunsmith, which of course included one very very very light trigger. Apparently he had lots of money, because he certainly had never shot an action pistol match before in his life and yet certainly showed up with All The Gear.

He also was uncontrolled, shaky, and had poor muzzle awareness. And didn't apply the safety when the gun was in his holster. And got DQed for not following the rules.

(I note that if "cocked and locked being preached" is an argument for you, then no one should have a problem putting the safety on, yes?)

I don't make the rules. I follow them, and I apply them fairly and equally to everyone. If that makes me a "rules Nazi" then I regret to inform people that they don't know what that phrase means. And at our club, we try to follow the rulebook so that we actually hold correctly officiated USPSA matches. (We do that at our Sectional and Area matches, too.)

Last I knew, the NROI range officers code said something about that...something like:

• As a USPSA Range Officer, I shall conduct all competitions with the safety of the competitors, spectators and fellow Range Officials first and foremost in my thoughts and actions.
• Safety shall always be my primary goal, with efficiency and speed of the competition as secondary factors.
• I will thoroughly familiarize myself with all current regulations, match rules and attendant subjects.
• I shall put aside personal prejudices and act as an impartial judge at all times.

I'm all for keeping new shooters coming. But as people have said---being DQed isn't the end of a shooter's competition career. And if the shooter is treated correctly, they'll come back and try again.

[cnote]

There definitely are "rule nazis" out there who go out of there way at a local to put a cloud over the match. For some reason I don't see these individuals working level 2 or above or they just curtail their overzealous behavior (probably because they are uncomfortable not being the smartest guy in the room like at their home range)

I don't consider safety related rules ever to fall under this situation. In my experience, it is an individual attempting to play attorney and bend some of the rules to their interpretation, rather than the way it "actually" reads or is interpreted by NROI

I see way more of this behavior in a different discipline than USPSA and it is the reason i choose to stay away from them or just accept the match as practice (or more importantly a great day at the range with my friends)

[Sarge]

Interestingly enough, I've never met a brand new shooter that has a 1911 with a 2lb trigger. Nice excuse.

Apparently you are confused with LII & LIII matches vs. club level matches.

What exactly is the difference between various match levels pertaining to safety?

At my very first RO class a guy showed up with a full blown Brazos open gun and all the high end gear that goes along with it. We were all quite impressed until he admitted he had never shot an actual match before. He had no idea what he was doing as far as the platform was concerned.

[BSeevers]

If you are holstering single action guns (especially ones with light, short travel trigger, custom guns) with safety off somebody is gonna AD eventually at the very least or maybe shoot a big hole in their foot or yours. Just because the gun got holstered and no holes in foot doesn't mean no harm no foul. I understand the "teaching moment" and have practiced it but think about this. If you were cutting down trees and the guy with you grabs the chain saw and starts it and says "Never used one of these before" you would be worried. If you don't understand the basic function of SA guns should you be running with one?

[Rick88]

I find that it is better to avoid this issue by having a 20 second talk to the "new shooter" before the load command, I tell them three things. When I say load and make ready, draw your gun chamber a round apply the safety and reholster, at the beep draw disengage safety and shoot keeping muzzle pointed down range at all times, keep your finger off of the trigger at all times except when shooting. This seems to work well as last minute instruction.

[motosapiens]

The rule nazis and also the dangerous RO's who don't care about safety should be able to have a group hug and agree that it's probably a good idea to do a safety briefing for new shooters at every club match. This safety briefing should cover the cold range rules, safety table, RO commands and appropriate responses, DQ-able actions, etc....

Before the safety briefing, a new shooter *may* still get some leeway and teaching. After the safety briefing, DQ when it is warranted.

For example, someone who has never been to a pistol match before puts his gun in the holster at his car and walks down to the sign-in area. That person would probably get an immediate 'pre-safety-briefing'. At that point, he's not a uspsa competitor, so he's not really subject to our rules. He could have been shooting in one of the open bays that we aren't using.

Anyway, I try to set people up for success and minimize the chances I'll have to dq someone.

[Sarge]

Just so people don't think I'm a rules NAZI I can tell you we do a new shooters brief at every single match. But there was this one time where a guy walks up to the sign in table with his gun in holster and a mag in gun. Several of us noticed and told him he could not have the mag in gun and before we could continue on to tell him we would help him make sure the gun is safe he proceeds to whip it out at the registration table and drop the mag. When we all practically hit the deck and started freaking out he made some kind of comment about us not ever seeing a gun before. He was a smart ass in my opinion. And guess what? I did not DQ him! I wanted to and probably should have but instead I sent him to the safety area with another shooter and made sure he got intense one on one attention. He made it through the match OK but he never came back that I am aware of. I guess we were not man enough for him! Actually, like many who come out and give it a try, he probably found he was in way over his head.

[mosher]

A rule is a rule, a match is a match, and a competitor is a competitor.

Doesn't matter if your new or old or famous, or if it's level 1, 2, or 3, or if it's a rule you like or not.

Everybody should be treated the same at every level match. Period, end of discussion.

It doesn't work out that way in reality, of course, because the sport is littered with star-struck and pick-and-choose RO's.

Try not to be one of them.

If you advocate applying rules differently based on the experience or fame of the shooter or the level of the match or pick and choose which rules you enforce for different people, then you are doing it wrong and are a crappy RO.

[motosapiens]

Just so people don't think I'm a rules NAZI I can tell you we do a new shooters brief at every single match. But there was this one time where a guy walks up to the sign in table with his gun in holster and a mag in gun. Several of us noticed and told him he could not have the mag in gun and before we could continue on to tell him we would help him make sure the gun is safe he proceeds to whip it out at the registration table and drop the mag. When we all practically hit the deck and started freaking out he made some kind of comment about us not ever seeing a gun before. He was a smart ass in my opinion. And guess what? I did not DQ him! I wanted to and probably should have but instead I sent him to the safety area with another shooter and made sure he got intense one on one attention. He made it through the match OK but he never came back that I am aware of. I guess we were not man enough for him! Actually, like many who come out and give it a try, he probably found he was in way over his head.

I don't think you're a rules nazi. To me, the key is to first make sure new shooters are informed of the rules, *before* they have a chance to break them, and/or hurt someone. That's on us as RO's, MD's and experienced competitors. Sounds like you are doing that. If the club makes sure new shooters are briefed, then there's no good argument in favor of applying a different safety standard at a local match, or to a less experienced shooter.

[Fireant]

B_Seehawer really? What is different about a Level I and II match as it pertains to safety rules?

Yes, I read the entire rule book several times before I ever attended my first match, did you?

Edited March 18, 2014 by Fireant

[AICS308]

A new shooter cannot be expected to know the rules before he shoots.

When I started USPSA many years back we had what I don't see much of these days, a new shooter pre match briefing where the rules were discussed and the major important safety rules explained along with the applicable penalties up to and including DQ.

The new shooter was then placed in a squad of experienced shooters and certified ROs who then mentored the shooter through his first match. Imagine, shooters actually helping a new guy learn the basics so he has a great time and most likely will return.

DQ a new shooter at his first match because the jerk wads at the club were to high and mighty to help a new guy!

Sounds like we may be going the way of another dumb _ _ _ organization.

[OUshooter]

A new shooter cannot be expected to know the rules before he shoots.

When I started USPSA many years back we had what I don't see much of these days, a new shooter pre match briefing where the rules were discussed and the major important safety rules explained along with the applicable penalties up to and including DQ.

The new shooter was then placed in a squad of experienced shooters and certified ROs who then mentored the shooter through his first match. Imagine, shooters actually helping a new guy learn the basics so he has a great time and most likely will return.

DQ a new shooter at his first match because the jerk wads at the club were to high and mighty to help a new guy!

Sounds like we may be going the way of another dumb _ _ _ organization.

As stated before I'm not going to specifics but there is alot wrong here. Again enforce the rules which If they know enough to know is uspsa then they need to take 20 min and read the rule book. The whole "just show up"mentality helps no one.

You don't show up to a pick up basketball game and not know the basic rules. We run at full speed with loaded guns, Jesus I don't think it is too much to ask to read a rule book even the boring parts of match admin. If one can't be bothered with that then please stay home.

Edited March 19, 2014 by OUshooter

[cohland]

A new shooter cannot be expected to know the rules before he shoots...

I respectfully disagree.

Chris