Receiving help on the COF

[kevin c]

I was the RO for this problem at today's local match. On a field course the shooter lost a full magazine without knowing it and came into the last position with no ammo. He groaned, but made no move to go back to retrieve any of his dropped mags. I was going to issue the IFULASC command but a squad member handed him the full mag he picked up as he came down range to tape and reset (his being on the stage was expected - to finish the match by the required time, we had to do everything possible to cut turn around time). The shooter used the mag to finish the COF. I didn't stop him, first, because I was so flabbergasted, second, I wasn't sure who or how to penalize and three, if I was wrong, I'd have to give a reshoot. After finishing the COF normally, I did give a RS, no penalties issued to anybody, but I still am not sure if that was quite right.

So, what say you all? Reshoot? Penalties for the helper, the shooter, both or neither? If penalties, for what?

TIA

[Sarge]

Procedural for both under 8.6.2 and possible 10.6

New shooter? New shooter who helped the shooter? You really should have caught that before it happened .

Of course the whole thing never would have happened if you were not scoring targets before the range was clear.

[Nik Habicht]

Kevin's got the correct call -- a procedural for each at your discretion.....

I'm guessing the timer was ticking for a little while too? Depending on how long the competitor waited for the mag, I might not have assessed the procedural......

Reshoot? Nope, definitely not, based on what you provided....

[frag316]

Given an experienced shooter and an experienced "helper," I'd have admonished both and given a "STOP" for the COF, scoring the COF as shot without letting the competitor use the provided magazine.

If either guy were new, I'd do the same thing, with an admonishment for the experienced guy (who should know better) and an explanation for the new guy.

If both were new, drop the admonishment and go over the interference rules with them.

Stuff happens.

[sperman]

Once you issue a "Stop" command, you pretty much guarantee the shooter a re-shoot.

[Sarge]

Once you issue a "Stop" command, you pretty much guarantee the shooter a re-shoot.

My thoughts as well. In the interest of trying to adhere to the rules STOP would not be something to say. It makes most everything null and void.

And to clarify exactly what Nik and others have said. I also agree it would depend on the level of newbieness of the shooters involved how I would handle it. Two brand new shooters probably would rate just stern warnings and rules refreshment on the spot. While those that knew better would not get off so easy. But then again, the experienced shooters I shoot with would not do anything as dumb as pick up a mag and hand it to a shooter. Sorry, but that is dumb.

As for the "stuff happens" take on things, at some point RO's need to be more on the ball to keep "stuff" like this from happening. None of us are perfect but I can't see myself letting something like this happen.

[sperman]

I've seen new shooters at a local match that were going to run out of ammo on a stage with a lot of steel and either picked up a dropped mag or pulled a mag off of my belt (if they were running the same gun) so they can finish the stage. The shooter is already going to finish dead last on the stage. They are more likely to return if they enjoy the match instead of running out of ammo before they finish the stage. Maybe I should have been given a procedural.

[motosapiens]

Yeah, at a local match, I would probably just explain the rules and let it go. If the shooter who ran out was actually in the running to win the coveted bass boat that goes to the monthly match 'winner', maybe I would give him a procedural too.

[kevin c]

The shooter is a master class shooter (who probably should have known better). The "assisstant" I am told (was not on my home range) is fairly new and sometimes does unexpected thiings. The COF was a big field course with lots of movement and a relatively low HF, and the time it took for the mag to be given still made it worth shooting.

Letting the run stand as shot with assisstance was not appropriate, Giving one ten point procedural, though, didn't seem adequate to the situation, since that is still much less painful for the shooter than eating five times twenty five points for the FTEs, misses and the value of the lost hits on the five plates of the last array. Giving the reshoot, with benefit of hindsight, doesn't seem like such a great option either, since the shooter can better his score (he did, but only barely) and such a policy might be abused.

OK, one procedural to the shooter it is, and he knows he dodged a bullet. (may be one per shot might be more in line with neutralizing the advantage gained?). Procedural to the helper as well, who knows now that he screwed up. RO duly made aware of what to try to avoid in the future (though I am not sure how I could have stopped this from happening, as it was so fast and unexpected).

Thank you, gentlemen!

edited to correct points lost.

Edited February 25, 2014 by kevin c

[Nimitz]

A Master class shooter who 'probably' should have known better? That's being awuful generous, don't you think? I'm assuming he's been shooting a few years ....?

[kevin c]

I know him mainly as an IDPA Master who recently has been getting into three gun and USPSA. Still in IDPA you don't get help on the COF either.

Edited February 24, 2014 by kevin c

[Nik Habicht]

Kevin,

experience is a great teacher, no? While you might not have been able to prevent it this weekend, I suspect you'll be in a better position if you encounter it again.....

[frag316]

I guess you're right (Just looked over all of the applicable rules). In a lot of ways, there's really no good penalty for giving and receiving that kind of assistance.

[EkuJustice]

That is one situation you have to be careful of as an RO where the shooter gets to the end and dropped a mag and still has targets and no ammo. If there are 3 or 4 targets left if the shooter does not shoot at them the stage is zeroed as each target has a swing of 40 points 10 for FTE, 20 for the 2 mikes, and 10 for the 2 lost alphas. Regardless of the Hit factor there is a benefit of going back for a mag if it prevents a zeroed stage or basically only a few scoring points so a megalow hit factor. If you go back and retrieve the mag and finish you still get points and a hit factor but a real slow time. If the RO yells stop, for any reason other than what would be a DQ 180, sweeping etc you get a reshoot. If the RO is not paying attention and anticipating the possibility of the shooter going back and get bumped for not getting out of the way or the shooter starts to blow past them for not anticipating it and getting ready to book it out of the way its a reshoot.

Just remember if you as the RO yell stop and its not a DQ then the shooter gets a reshoot. In the situation here, it would have been a procedural. This is one situation where the field should be kept totally clear especially if something goes wrong etc ie mag falls out, activator that sets off multiple targets did not go down etc. Personally I would have been booking it for a mag in that case because the time is not a factor with those kinda points at stake and any hit factor is better than a zero and if the COF were not clear, mags not there would be wanting my reshoot

Edited February 25, 2014 by EkuJustice

[kevin c]

Thank you all, especially Kevin, Nik, Sperman and EkuJustice for your spot on analysis and observations and comments.

[frag316]

The one thing I would say is that this is a case where the possibility for safety issues might obviate the competitor's ability to go back for the mag. Note the OP said there were other people on the stage, because they were resetting it as it was being shot. Without knowing the stage's layout, it's possible there would have been people downrange of a competitor with a "loaded" gun, because the gun should be considered loaded until given IFUASC.

So, had the competitor not been handed a loaded magazine and opted to go back for the one he dropped, the RO may have been forced to issue a STOP, to keep him from having people downrange of his unholstered and hot gun.

[StealthyBlagga]

The resetters should not be on the stage, and dropped mags should not be touched, until ULSC is complete. If the shooter got to the end and decided to run back to get a discarded mag (which he is perfectly entitled to do so long as he is safe), then the resetters are in the way/in danger, and the magazines may no longer be where the shooter dropped them. I appreciate that stages have to be reset efficiently to keep the match on schedule, and this can be achieved by a second RO scoring the targets behind the shooter... one scorer is a lot more able to get out of the way quickly than a gaggle of resetters.

[EkuJustice]

It's not the shooters fault if he chooses to go back and can't because of people on the stage or in the way. If the ro needs to stop the shooter for something other than something he did that warrants a dq then he gets a reshoot. As an ro you need to keep the stage clear especially if something went wrong and there is a good chance the shooter is gonna come back. If the shooter were stopped while a mag was being offered then he's gonna get a reshoot.

[kevin c]

So like Nik was saying. I not only know what appropriate penalties may be applied and under which rules, but also understand better how the club's desire to hustle set this up, and how to prevent it. Basically nobody down range on the COF until the range is clear command, except the scorer, who needs to be aware of what is happening/might be happening down range (as does the RO holding the timer). NOBODY else, for the sake of safety as well as competitive equity (the ten point procedural doesn't nearly cover the advantage of finishing the COF with the handed off magazine).

Edited February 27, 2014 by kevin c

[steel1212]

Ok let me be the "other side." Just because I"m curious. This is nationals and same thing happens. What is the Correct call.

[kevin c]

Well, if I had been RO'ing, I woulda put a call in to the RM without touching anything, and Troy or John would have given me the call as laid out by Sarge, with no reshoot, and then they'd a slapped me upside the head for letting the squad on the stage while still in play ;^D

[steel1212]

Oh I understand. My question is I guess, like ryan said the shooter can't go back to retrieve his mag because somebody else picked it up, so to me it seems like a automatic reshoot for the shooter.

Let me flip it. What if happy new shooter is picking up SS mags that re laying every where helping out. Super stud shooter turns to pick up mag and can't BUT doesn't take handed mag. So what's that call.

Not being difficult I'm honestly curious now lol

[elynch2007]

I would not stop the shooter until the mag that was handed to him was inserted into the gun. At that point he has given up the option of retrieving a dropped mag and has excepted outside assistance that would give him a big advantage.

If aloud to continue then targets would have to be scored as shoot with only procedurals as the only option. 2 procedurals per target is a advantage over 2 mikes and a FTE per target.

As RO's we are not to give advantage to or take advantage away from any shooters, but keep the COF as equal as possible for each and every shooter in the match.

[sperman]

Honestly, unless the shooter just admits that he was done and wants the stage scored as shot, I don't see any way out of this other than a reshoot. Procedural penalties may still be issued, but I don't think there is any way to ignore the interference. But like Kevin said, before making any decision the RM would be contacted, and it would be his call.

[kevin c]

Hmmm. Can't finish the COF because it has been altered by Mister Happy being where and doing what he shouldn't? I'd call it a RS too,

Let's get even more esoteric. For stage planning reasons a nearly full magazine is dropped on the first reload uprange. There are multiple nearly empty magazines dropped more downrange afterwards as the shooter moves through the COF. The last position is up and the shooter has no or runs out of ammo. He turns to retrieve an uprange dropped magazine and Mr. Happy is standing near the start position with the nearly full mag, with three other partially depleted mags lying between. The shooter either finishes uisng the mags still down, perhaps needing more than one of them, or stops, but either way demands a reshoot, saying he needed and intended to get the first mag dropped but could not. Does he get the RS?