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Match Directors: how do you handle this?


Nimitz

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USPSA is not for everyone and not for every club.

Opening the door to compromise because of "legitimate" liability concerns will only ensure that those compromises will quickly become embedded in our core structure.

Better fighting every encroachment and losing the occasional battle then surrendering our sport.

Those willing to surrender are certainly free to form their own game. But don't count on the USPSA infrastructure to assist you.

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USPSA is not for everyone and not for every club.

You're correct. Modern USPSA is freestyle and pretty much requires a range subdivided into pits......

But, as recently as 10 years ago, I was shooting a monthly match at a club that had one large outdoor range, with no pits. The MD managed to put up four stages on a common firing line, with the classifier set up in the clubhouse. We knew exactly what we'd get every month -- one stage on the left with side to side movement, one stage shot from a barricade box with arrays to the left and right, and occasionally through a port in the barricade, one speed shoot style stage shot from a box, and on the right a field course with actual forward movement.....

Was that match entirely freestyle? Nope, but it was as freestyle as it could be with the physical layout restrictions.

Was it the ideal match? No. Did it threaten what the other clubs in the section could do? Nope. Did that match eventually fade away when the MD retired? Yup. But then the club built some pits on the property, another MD stepped up to the plate and that club is once again active as a USPSA facility.....

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A club in western Oregon lost their USPSA affiliation for the same thing.

Lost it in that USPSA revoked it, or that the parent organization told the discipline they could no longer play?

Lost in that the SC decided to stop the range from hosting USPSA events after the club BOD made it very clear they had no interest in allowing USPSA matches to continue despite their signed agreement that they would follow USPSA rules. If the SC hadn't done it I would have. There is no USPSA President waiver for clubs to prohibit the muzzle over the berm. I've been through this. Both with Voigt and Strader. Neither will grant the waiver and I agree with them that it shouldn't be. And in case someone thinks that decision was easy for me the club that shut down was my home club and the one I started at in 1996. It really sucks, but there are an awful lot of reasons to not allow that particular local rule.

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I agree that I'd rather be President of USPSA, with all the 'work' it would require, which would take away from my ability to shoot, then be on the BoD of almost any local club I'm familiar with .... And there is no doubt our safety record rivals any you can name. And let's face it, many local ranges have no idea what our sport is about, so it's easy to assume we are unsafe ...

In the end, you're right that if we just give in to every local range no matter what, we won't have a viable sport for long ...

So, is there any legitimate situtation where USPSA would consider muzzle over the berm exception?

And one last question ... I've been told that in an IPSC match, muzzle over the berm during reload is not allowed ...? If true, how did USPSA develop away from that?

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From the IPSC rule book:

2.1.2 Safe Angles of Fire – Unless otherwise specified, the default maximum muzzle angle is 90
degrees in all directions, measured from the front of the competitor facing directly center downrange.
Violations are subject to Rule 10.5.2.
2.1.2.1 Subject to the direction and approval of the Regional Director, stage(s) or range specific muzzle
angles (reduced or increased) may be permitted. Violations are subject to Rule 10.5.2. Full details
of the applicable angles and any conditional factors (e.g. a reduced vertical muzzle angle only
applies when a finger is inside the trigger guard), must be published in advance of the match and
must be included in the written stage briefings (also see Section 2.3).
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The MD posted this on the club's USPSA match website:

"I have received in writing from the Pistol Chairman USPSA is a go."

And this on the club's steel shoot website:

"I have received in writing from the Pistol Chairman the Steel Match is a go!!!"

Very good news! :cheers:

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one more thing. Our BoD would also insist we enforce the "no steel inside of 10 yds" rule as well. Since the USPSA minimum is 8yds this would obviously affect stage design but I would consider that relatively easy to comply with .... our SC matches are another issue as several of the stages have targets inside of 10 yds but we'd have to get a waiver from our Bod to handle that since we obviously can't change theSC stage layouts ...

There is no rule in USPSA that says the steel MUST be within 10 yards. It only says it must be a minimum distance away. If the range wants it further it does not change the USPSA rule and there fore does not violate it.

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USPSA rules and Range rules are different organizations and therefore enforced by different organizations.

You may not be able to DQ them for a USPSA infraction but you can be asked to leave the range by the owners. They are not declaring nor enforcing a USPSA rule.

USPSA does not have a rule that says 'you must allow the muzzle over the berm'

Obviously the reactions will be that shooters will not come. Self-curing problem.

Edited by j33716
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With regards to this whole thread.... I had an email conversation with Troy maybe a week ago... and the AD needs a little coaxing... Scott hit the nail on the head.... I read this entire thread and I am not surprised....Anyway--- I hope to see yall on the range at Area 6... I'll be there manning a stage somewhere.....

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USPSA rules and Range rules are different organizations and therefore enforced by different organizations.

You may not be able to DQ them for a USPSA infraction but you can be asked to leave the range by the owners. They are not declaring nor enforcing a USPSA rule.

USPSA does not have a rule that says 'you must allow the muzzle over the berm'

Obviously the reactions will be that shooters will not come. Self-curing problem.

Match Officials who do not enforce the Range Rule will also be asked to leave and/or expelled/banned/thrown out of the Club.

Who will put on the USPSA match?

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USPSA rules and Range rules are different organizations and therefore enforced by different organizations.

You may not be able to DQ them for a USPSA infraction but you can be asked to leave the range by the owners. They are not declaring nor enforcing a USPSA rule.

USPSA does not have a rule that says 'you must allow the muzzle over the berm'

Obviously the reactions will be that shooters will not come. Self-curing problem.

Match Officials who do not enforce the Range Rule will also be asked to leave and/or expelled/banned/thrown out of the Club.

Who will put on the USPSA match?

nobody. Because there can't be a USPSA match. We have been over this right?
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So apparently the problem has solved itself.

If the president said its a go, we have no issue.

rgkeller seems to understand some of my point...

It will solve itself.. If they have a range rule, USPSA cannot override the owners decision. If they kick people out on their own rules (not USPSA rules) then they will have nobody to participate or run the match. On the other hand, if the locals decide to abide by the local rule voluntarily, such as placing steel 10 yards out, then they have just agreed to play and the match goes on. It's when the locals have a local issue against each other. If someone from the local range decides to push a rule that is not USPSA, then the match will terminate itself by lack of participation.

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to be clear ... AD6 said he didn't believe a waiver was necessary because while we may be violating the intent of USPSA's freestyle shooting we were not breaking any USPSA rules by following the local rule if we had to ...

Also the WRT the steel rule ...the issue for the MD was that by not allowing us to put steel as close as 8 yds, the club was impacting (maybe impeding) stage design. As I also stated, with the exception of SC, I didn't believe this to be a big deal, just a fact ...

Anyway, my purpose for the original post was not to have a rules discussion since our AD had provided his opinion and I assumed that was good enough. Rather to have a match operations discussion on how we socialize this with our shooters and still conduct matches given this would have been a pretty big change for most. Of course if I had just waited 2 days none of this discussion would have been necessary ... :)

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There are lots of things clubs can mandate in regards to stage design that are transparent to the shooter. Close steel in USPSA, forward falling poppers, and some other things. As an MD those are things you can work with in setting up your stages. I had a club that put a ban into place on driving steel down with more than two rounds. We worked with the club to avoid using rear falling poppers for activators, how to place them in the bay to minimize rounds leaving. We talked about grants to buy new FFP steel and a couple other ways to mitigate it. Club reversed the rule and is using our rules again. There is no effect from the shooters side. Where local rules become a conflict is when shooters start being DQd or penalized for actions they can do at any other match in the country. At that point it's no longer a USPSA match. Whether it's the USPSA group or the host range doing the enforcement.

As far as taking as gospel what an AD says...don't. Not specific to any one AD and certainly not a slam on Jay. No single AD has all the answers and is always right. Everyone of us has made errors or been wrong at one point on something. Best bet with questions of this type is to ask Amidon. If he has questions about it he brings it to the BOD and we figure out what to do.

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fair enough, this is why I like to avoid politics and just shoot .... I have enough politics at work to deal with and I try to avoid them where possible after 5pm .... Naïve ...? Maybe, but it helps me keep my sanity ... especially now that I own guns ... :)

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So, is there any legitimate situtation where USPSA would consider muzzle over the berm exception?

I don't believe that any has been granted in the recent past (under the last two Presidents). We knew that, under Mike, and we asked Phil last year. My take and recollection was that Phil was not likely to grant exemptions. (IIRC)

And one last question ... I've been told that in an IPSC match, muzzle over the berm during reload is not allowed ...? If true, how did USPSA develop away from that?

I think the reverse is true. I believe their rule wording was changed more recently. IPSC has tended to allow in more rules that are what I would call the Least Common Denominator rules. I don't really mean that in a derogatory way. They look to be in countries that operate differently than we do. (No humanoid targets, for example.)

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It seems that we have a few AD's in this discussion. I am the match director of the Oregon club that lost its sanctioning due to the club's new rule of no muzzles above the berm. I agree that USPSA needed to pull from our club as that is what the rules state. Did I like it, NO, but I understand.

My question is how does the census feel about IDPA's new rule sets that include the range to impose their own safety rules as they deem necessary? Will you stand up and stop shooting IDPA because of the rule?

I can see both sides of the coin with the muzzle above the been rule. Our club is situated in an urban are and by all means, if a round left the range, it could hit property or worse a person. From a clubs perspective, it would be their lawsuit and not the person who fired the round. In our case a well know master shooter had launched 3 rounds in less than six months and was even found on YouTube to not be the slightest remorseful just after doing it. In fact he laughed and joked about it. My SC and I took a stand and banned him from any event at our club for six months, including the USPSA points series for slots. Would have liked to ban him from the section but it was not in our bylaws. This was not enough for our clubs board as they now saw all USPSA shooters as a bunch of inconsiderate a-holes.

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