Nimitz Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Ok, I was originally going to post this in the Rules subforum but after a discussion with my Area Director it's clear there is no rules issues or violation so I'm now looking for suggestions on how to handle this situation operationally at my local monthly match. Note: I am not the MD or even a certified RO ... just someone who wants to see my local matches continue .... Without going into the sorted details, suffice to say that my local club BoD may be instituting a new rule (some would say, enforcing an existing rule) that would mandate that no muzzle ever be pointed over the berm at any time, for any reason, no matter the condition of the firearm or whether an RO is present ... Currently, as long as the shooter points the muzzle in a safe direction, with their finger outside the trigger, they are good. Now we would have to start enforcing muzzle direction in relation to the berm and DQing folks who didn't comply. So how would you all handle this change at your matches, which for most, would be a significant change in their gun handling, and not something they've done before? What I think I would do is have a somewhat longer safety brief than normal at the first match this rule would apply to and then talk with all the ROs about initially issuing "muzzle" verbal warnings to shooters during a CoF vice immediate DQs. I'd also probably ask the ROs to issue a reminder at the start of every stage to help everyone remember, etc. Anything else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 one more thing. Our BoD would also insist we enforce the "no steel inside of 10 yds" rule as well. Since the USPSA minimum is 8yds this would obviously affect stage design but I would consider that relatively easy to comply with .... our SC matches are another issue as several of the stages have targets inside of 10 yds but we'd have to get a waiver from our Bod to handle that since we obviously can't change the SC stage layouts ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstoos Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) Rule 3.3 Host organization may not enforce local (club) rules except to comply with legislation or legal precedent in the applicable jurisdiction. Any voluntary adopted rules that are not in compliance with these rules must not be applied to USPSA matches without the express consent of the president of USPSA. Edited January 14, 2014 by jstoos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 If the BOD is going to enforce the rule at your club, you cannot call it a USPSA match. (See the post above.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I would no longer md there nor would I shoot there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I get what the BoD is trying to do with the rule. I believe the intent of the rule is to ensure that no rounds leave the range for safety reasons. Our club as a similar rule but it's worded differently. Our rule is that all targets must be placed in such a manner that when the bullet passes through it the bullet must impact the berm. Perhaps the BoD would entertain the idea of rewording their rule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 one more thing. Our BoD would also insist we enforce the "no steel inside of 10 yds" rule as well. Since the USPSA minimum is 8yds this would obviously affect stage design but I would consider that relatively easy to comply with .... our SC matches are another issue as several of the stages have targets inside of 10 yds but we'd have to get a waiver from our Bod to handle that since we obviously can't change the SC stage layouts ... This would kill SC matches at the club. It would rule out half of the stages (Smoke & Hope, Speed Option, Roundabout, and Five To Go). Who would want to shoot the other 4 stages every month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I get what the BoD is trying to do with the rule. I believe the intent of the rule is to ensure that no rounds leave the range for safety reasons. Our club as a similar rule but it's worded differently. Our rule is that all targets must be placed in such a manner that when the bullet passes through it the bullet must impact the berm. Perhaps the BoD would entertain the idea of rewording their rule?10.4.1 already covers that. No need for club rules about berms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstoos Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Nimitz it sounds like your club has a BoD problem. Either the people on your board don't have any common sense or they are trying to stop action pistol shooting at your club. Actually it is probably both. It sounds like it is time for some new blood on your board. You need to be active in your club and attend the meetings. Find some USPSA members to run for board positions. I'm a MD and on the BoD at my club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 10.4.1 already covers that. No need for club rules about berms Good to know. Thanks Sarge. Perhaps the approach Nimitz should take would be to go before the BoD with specific rules noted such as 10.4.1 which covers shots over a berm. In our case the club rule applies to all shooting regardless if it's competition or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RammerJammer Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 If enforced it would pretty much be a ban on revos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 With the expansion of suburban areas across the country, this type of rules change to a shooting club is likely going to be more prevalent. If USPSA mandates that it cannot abide by these rules then we may soon run out of places to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 You are being run out. I have seen this technique used many times. Its just step one. Run for the board, get a shooter to run too and take over. If not quit shooting there. You probably will be forced to in the future anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RammerJammer Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 You are being run out. I have seen this technique used many times. Its just step one. Run for the board, get a shooter to run too and take over. If not quit shooting there. You probably will be forced to in the future anyway. Whats the end state gain in that? I have limited exposure but at my club USPSA/IDPA/Steel Challenge are all there is. I think it would close without those. Are there clubs that want to focus on cowboy action and hunting rifle sighting in? What else makes money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theKenny Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 You are being run out. I have seen this technique used many times. Its just step one. Run for the board, get a shooter to run too and take over. If not quit shooting there. You probably will be forced to in the future anyway. Whats the end state gain in that? I have limited exposure but at my club USPSA/IDPA/Steel Challenge are all there is. I think it would close without those. Are there clubs that want to focus on cowboy action and hunting rifle sighting in? What else makes money? Trap and skeet would be my guess, at least at the range Nimitz is referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RammerJammer Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 You are being run out. I have seen this technique used many times. Its just step one. Run for the board, get a shooter to run too and take over. If not quit shooting there. You probably will be forced to in the future anyway. Whats the end state gain in that? I have limited exposure but at my club USPSA/IDPA/Steel Challenge are all there is. I think it would close without those. Are there clubs that want to focus on cowboy action and hunting rifle sighting in? What else makes money? Trap and skeet would be my guess, at least at the range Nimitz is referring to. Ahhh, we're too white trash for all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) You are being run out. I have seen this technique used many times. Its just step one. Run for the board, get a shooter to run too and take over. If not quit shooting there. You probably will be forced to in the future anyway. Whats the end state gain in that? I have limited exposure but at my club USPSA/IDPA/Steel Challenge are all there is. I think it would close without those. Are there clubs that want to focus on cowboy action and hunting rifle sighting in? What else makes money?Well I have seen many clubs close down or ban competition. Quite a few of club leaders are weak minded, old men with emotional issues (low self esteem, control issues or just plain dumba----s) Most clubs don't need the money that bad since they have already bought the land cheap decades ago. What this usually is about is insecurity, power and good old fashioned meanness. Heck just like all politicians they aren't spending their money and its not like they need to generate a profit. Your local club is usually made up of a majority members who shoot 3 boxes of ammo a year not competition people. I'm just trying to help the guy because in a couple years he may be on the outside of the candy store looking in. Edited January 14, 2014 by BSeevers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstoos Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) With the expansion of suburban areas across the country, this type of rules change to a shooting club is likely going to be more prevalent. If USPSA mandates that it cannot abide by these rules then we may soon run out of places to shoot. If you are saying that USPSA members and the USPSA BoD should go along with club rules like this I disagree. The reason that our sport is successful is because we can go to any club to shoot a match and expect the rules to always be the same. What happens when a clubs BoD makes a "safety" rule that steel cant be shot, or no running with guns, or no rapid fire? Edited January 14, 2014 by jstoos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RammerJammer Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 You are being run out. I have seen this technique used many times. Its just step one. Run for the board, get a shooter to run too and take over. If not quit shooting there. You probably will be forced to in the future anyway. Whats the end state gain in that? I have limited exposure but at my club USPSA/IDPA/Steel Challenge are all there is. I think it would close without those. Are there clubs that want to focus on cowboy action and hunting rifle sighting in? What else makes money?Well I have seen many clubs close down or ban competition. Quite a few of club leaders are weak minded, old men with emotional issues (low self esteem, control issues or just plain dumba----s)Most clubs don't need the money that bad since they have already bought the land cheap decades ago. What this usually is about is insecurity, power and good old fashioned meanness. Heck just like all politicians they aren't spending their money and its not like they need to generate a profit. Your local club is usually made up of a majority members who shoot 3 boxes of ammo a year not competition people. I'm just trying to help the guy because in a couple years he may be on the outside of the candy store looking in. Once again I find out how good I have it. All of our board are match directors/ shooters. Its all I have ever known and I hope it stays that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) Guys, I appreciate all your comments but the politics associated with my club would require me to start my own forum to discuss ... I really don't want to get into the "why" but all of your suggestions have/are being looked at and probably won't work .... However, after talking with my Area director he says we can comply with the local club safety rule and continue to hold sanctioned matches & he actually cited other clubs where this same issue is in effect and they are still holding sanctioned matches ...... WRT SC matches, as I stated earlier, we would need a waiver since we can't alter stage designs & several stages require targets inside of 10 yds ... For the purposes of this discussion I'd like to stick to how we would handle executing matches with this rule in effect, and not, how do we not have this rule, which almost certainly will be put into effect tomorrow night at our club's annual membership mtg ... Edited January 14, 2014 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Sorry but your AD is giving you bad guidance. The rules are very clear about club rules being imposed on a sanctioned match. There is no way for you to do anything to a USPSA shooter for pointing a gun over a berm. The club can probably ban him from the grounds but MD can't do anything. There is not a rule against it so he can't be DQ'd. What would happen if a shooter traveled to your club from a great distance and got stopped for violating a club rule? You can't DQ HIM so do you make him leave? Does he get a reshoot? That could be a major problem in itself. My club is first and foremost a rifle club and our matches make more money in one match than most of the rifle disciplines do in a year but I have been approached about adding club rules after an AD left the property. I basically made it clear that I would not be a part of club rules as an MD and that many shooters would start skipping our match. Maybe not the case for you but there are enough matches near me to pass on bogus matches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 Sarge I hear you but I have to disagree. Our AD cited several clubs where this issue has already come up and the clubs continue to conduct sanctioned matches but also comply with all local safety rules, including clubs that have rules about not pointing the gun muzzle above a berm. He said there is no USPSA rule stating muzzle position. And while you may be able to argue that you are violating the intent of USPSA "freestyle shooting", as he pointed out, intent is not a rule ... Not conducting level 1 matches at ranges which have restrictive safety rules seems a little bit of cutting off your nose to spite your face. In a perfect world, sure we should shun this range and take our business elsewhere but that is not living in the real world ... there isn't another local place for us to go. far better IMHO to stand your ground & let this club know we are not going anywhere and will continue to hold sanctioned matches than to just 'give in' and walk away, particularly if this is what they are hoping happens ... Also we can't use financial leverage against the range since our matches really don't generate any significant revenue for the range, match fees cover the cost of holding matches and some expenses and that's about it. If we tried to tell the Board that they couldn't dictate rules to us they would just kick us out and never look back ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I'll do some digging here on the forum, but I'm pretty sure Troy and maybe even Amidon have clearly stated that a "muzzle over the berm" rule is in direct conflict with 3.3. Just because other clubs are doing it doesn't make it legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken_Bird Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Our club here in Dallas has a very strict rule over control of the muzzle. We also enforce the 180 deg rule as well. We suguest that the mussle be at the burn, not the ground, not over the berm. It really has never posed any problem for any of our matches. Our rule is truly a safety issue. It is backed from our Board and all march directors and range officers. JFWIW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 fair enough, but if there is an official USPSA position on this then you apparently have clubs holding sanctioned matches in direct violation of the national organization's stated rules ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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