223 brass sizing problems

[21 guns]

Hello,

I am getting frustrated with reloading 223 because one out of every 7-10 rounds (give or take) will not drop fully into my EGW 7-hole chamber gage. Specifically, I am using winchester 556 NATO once fired cases.

My set up:

-Dillon super 1050

-Dillon 223 carbide size / decapping die

-Redding competition seater

-Dillon crimper

My processing is as follows:

-decap with universal deapper

-tumble

-size

-trim to 1.76

Then start reloading as the processed brass with be swaged on the press.

I am using 75 and 77 grain bullets (hornady and sierra match king respectively), seating to OAL 2.255 (magazine length)

These rounds typically drop freely into the EGW 5.56 case gage, but NOT the EGW 223 gage. The base of the finished round typically sits just proud of the gage surface.

I have tried a redding small-base die, but have had similar results.

I have tried to tell myself to just use the 556 gage and call it a day, but the perfectionist in me can't let it go...

I am using a Wylde-chambered AR, so the "failed chamber gage" rounds will still run, but I am uncertain how much "no-go" to accept.

My questions:

1. Has anyone encountered this problem?

2. Anyone have experience with the EGW gages; are they simply too tight?

3. Is using 556 Nato brass causing any issues with the finished product fitting into a 223 case gage?

4. Suggestions with the press?

Thanks in advance

[anm2_man]

I don't have any experience with the EGW gages, but since your post has been sitting since tuesday with no response, I figured I'll chime in. I'm wondering if there isn't a problem with the .223 gauge ? I guess the question would be will a factory .223 round, gauge correctly in the EGW .223 guage ? If it doesn't, then you will know the gauge is bad.

[RiggerJJ]

Trim to 1.750

Screw sizing die down to the shellplate, then overcam by 1/4 to 1/2 turn.

jj

Oh yea, get a JP guage and ditch the others, it is for Wylde chambers...

Edited November 23, 2013 by RiggerJJ

[Dirty Rod]

I have the same issue. About half my .223 rounds don't go all the way in, need a little push, or stick so I have to push them out. Those same rounds drop right in and out of my Dillon gauge and chamber just fine in both my .223 ARs. I don't have any issues with my EGW pistol gauges but I just think the .223 gauge is off. I did call and talk to the guys at EGW but that didn't lead me anywhere.

[21 guns]

I don't have any experience with the EGW gages, but since your post has been sitting since tuesday with no response, I figured I'll chime in. I'm wondering if there isn't a problem with the .223 gauge ? I guess the question would be will a factory .223 round, gauge correctly in the EGW .223 guage ? If it doesn't, then you will know the gauge is bad.

Interesting thought. I did the experiment and here's what I found:

Factory Black Hills 77 grain ammo: all chambered in 223 EGW

Hornady 75 gr TAP FPD ammo: 4/20 did not chamber flush

Fiocchi 69 and 77 grain match ammo: all chambered

Federal Gold Medal 77 gr match: 1/20 did not chamber flush

Really makes you wonder, is this a factory tolerance issue or is the gage too tight?

[21 guns]

Trim to 1.750

Screw sizing die down to the shellplate, then overcam by 1/4 to 1/2 turn.

jj

Oh yea, get a JP guage and ditch the others, it is for Wylde chambers...

I will have to check on JP. Didn't even know they made a gauge.

[21 guns]

I have the same issue. About half my .223 rounds don't go all the way in, need a little push, or stick so I have to push them out. Those same rounds drop right in and out of my Dillon gauge and chamber just fine in both my .223 ARs. I don't have any issues with my EGW pistol gauges but I just think the .223 gauge is off. I did call and talk to the guys at EGW but that didn't lead me anywhere.

Thanks Dirty Rod, makes me feel a little better. Are you referring to the Dillon headspace gage? From my understanding, it is not supposed to check case size, but just headspace. My fired brass even drops in fully. Maybe there are different Dillon gages?

[Dirty Rod]

I have the same issue. About half my .223 rounds don't go all the way in, need a little push, or stick so I have to push them out. Those same rounds drop right in and out of my Dillon gauge and chamber just fine in both my .223 ARs. I don't have any issues with my EGW pistol gauges but I just think the .223 gauge is off. I did call and talk to the guys at EGW but that didn't lead me anywhere.

Thanks Dirty Rod, makes me feel a little better. Are you referring to the Dillon headspace gage? From my understanding, it is not supposed to check case size, but just headspace. My fired brass even drops in fully. Maybe there are different Dillon gages?

It is but I figured that if they were that far off they wouldn't headspace either. I've also dropped a couple in a friends Wilson gauge and thy dropped right in.

[bigedp51]

Forget your .223 EGW gauge you do not have a SAAMI chamber you have a Wylde chamber, you can also forget your 5.56 EGW gauge because its diameter is larger than a Wylde chamber. ("BUT" its the best GO/NO-GO gauge you have for outside diameter at this time)

When you fire a cartridge in your chamber it expands to chamber dimensions and when the pressure drops the brass tries to "spring back" to its original size/shape.

The same thing happens when you resize the case, and it also tries to spring back to its fired size.

Spring back is controlled by brass hardness and not all cartridge cases are made the exact same hardness.

Your Wylde chamber is almost .002 larger in diameter at the shoulder area than a .223 SAAMI chamber and if the brass springs back after sizing it will bind in your gauge. Forget your EGW gauges and just control your shoulder bump, your rifle will tell you if your cases are too fat.

And finally Lake City military cases are made to higher standards and the brass is much harder than commercial brass. It is made harder to better withstand larger diameter and longer headspaced military chambers.

Before they invented chamber gauges you used a felt tip marker and blackened the outside of the case and chambered this test round. And then you checked the ejected case for rub marks and signs of binding. Your Rifle will talk to you, on a over gassed AR15 rifle if your cases are too large in diameter it will rip the rim off the case and stick in the chamber.

Now do what a British member of our Enfield forum once said to me.

"Stop worrying and shoot the bloody rifle"

Edited November 25, 2013 by bigedp51

[dauntedfuture]

sometimes on brass thats been fired a few times the base of the case will expand a little. If 5 of 5 sized cases will drop into and not stick into your chamber then there is likely not an issue. You cae measure the length from the base of the case to the shoulder. On .223 a sized .308 case over the .223 case will work if you dont have propper tools.

[anm2_man]

Well I would have to say its a gage issue but not saying that factory brass is any better than resized shot once brass.

I don't have any experience with the EGW gages, but since your post has been sitting since tuesday with no response, I figured I'll chime in. I'm wondering if there isn't a problem with the .223 gauge ? I guess the question would be will a factory .223 round, gauge correctly in the EGW .223 guage ? If it doesn't, then you will know the gauge is bad.

Interesting thought. I did the experiment and here's what I found:

Factory Black Hills 77 grain ammo: all chambered in 223 EGW

Hornady 75 gr TAP FPD ammo: 4/20 did not chamber flush

Fiocchi 69 and 77 grain match ammo: all chambered

Federal Gold Medal 77 gr match: 1/20 did not chamber flush

Really makes you wonder, is this a factory tolerance issue or is the gage too tight?

[mpeltier]

Here's something else I've experienced with similar case guageing issues. It drove me crazy too. Sometimes the case rim gets ever so slightly peened during its firing cycle. This is something that does not get addressed during reloading and is not very obvious. When the freshly reloaded case is dropped into the guage the peened section is close to the groove and may be out of sight. It hits the side of the case guage and stops it just short of going all the way in. If you remove the affected case you can sometimes just make out a slight wave or imperfection in the rim. Sometimes you can only feel the slight differance. I touch the spot with a small file and try it again and 99% of the time it will drop right in. I believe this spot may be caused by the extractor.

[sschultz]

Not to hijack 21 guns thread but I just bought a Dillon case gage and found out some of my resized brass is sticking up just a tiny bit. I have the sizer set up so that the shell plate is touching the sizer on the up stroke. It a Lee die set do I need to find another die that will set the shoulder back that little bit more.

[427Cobra]

If the rounds chamber it doesn't matter if they fit in the case gauge from any manufacture

[Mastiff]

If the rounds chamber it doesn't matter if they fit in the case gauge from any manufacture

I'm not great with rifle reloading and still learning, but I think you have this absolutely Correct. I am using the Hornady OAL system and the actual chamber as my case gauge for my Browning .223 x-bolt, it's fussy about what it likes, otherwise the bolt will not close. For this rifle I am handloading Lapua brass, Reloader 7, CCI bench primers and Sierra #1400 bullets, OAL is 225 and it loves them. I do not crimp. I tried out the new ammo and the Browning today at the new Frisco Gun Club range in North Dallas and the rifle worked beautifully. Now if I can get the scope set up right, well, that's another story. The AR-15, at least mine, will handle a wider range of OAL. Every brass case, regardless of the rifle, the measurement that remains the same is the 1.75 trim and debur I.d. And o.d. I have to learn more about shoulder bumping, neck bushings, and more info. I bought the advanced reloading DVD and learned a bit, but I am wanting to learn more. I just keep reading.

Dog

[Dirty Rod]

I think the issue is, or at least it was in my case, that the rounds chambered and fired in all three of my ARs, plunked just fine in my Wilson headspace/case gauge, plunked just fine in my friends gauge, but would not drop into the EGW gauge.

I wanted the 7-round EGW gauge to work and tried bumping the shoulder more and a different die but ultimately just figured the EGW gauge was cut a little tighter. Still looking for a 7-20 round .223 gauge to replace it.

[fastshooter03]

I run two sizing dies when I process brass.

Sometimes fired brass doesn't like to size all the same-some have more springback.

Nick

[Henny]

Is the shoulder being pulled out by the neck expanding portion of the die? Remove the neck expander, size several cases, clean them up and check them in your gauge.

[anm2_man]

Not to hijack 21 guns thread but I just bought a Dillon case gage and found out some of my resized brass is sticking up just a tiny bit. I have the sizer set up so that the shell plate is touching the sizer on the up stroke. It a Lee die set do I need to find another die that will set the shoulder back that little bit more.

Make sure there are no extractor nicks on the rim of your cases. There are alot of guns that will nick them.

If there are nicks, you can quickly file the nicks smooth. I'll bet that they will guage correctly.

[21 guns]

Hey thanks for all the suggestions folks. It gives me some things to try. My take away message is probably: if it cycles in your gun, don't drive yourself crazy just because the gauge says its not sized perfectly. Even with the press set up correctly, there WILL be a certain failure rate….

[Smalltruck]

I ran into this at christmas and wound up learning lots I didn't think I needed. First, don't believe for a moment that 5.56 brass and 223 (bolt action gun) give you the same brass back. The difference is that the 223 Remington is a Sammi spec'd and adopted cartridge so there is a published standard. The 5.56 is not. Where the difference is, is at the headspace measurement. The datum line on the 223 is 1.466 inches from the case head to a place on the shoulder measuring .360 in diameter. Also the neck and shoulder junction is at 1.5573 from the case head to that point.

Many 5.56 chambers are longer than the 1.5573, some as much as .040 longer. <<<I learned that the hard way when I couldn't get my bolt to close on my 223.

Someone mentioned setting the die tighter to overcam and that will bump the shoulder back. This works, maybe, depending on the die set. It doesn't work on my Redding match dies. God knows I've tried. A local guy here told me to get a full length die and have the bottom turned about .025 shorter (basically grinding the die itself shorter) so the case can go farther into the die. Apparently this is a trick some people use on Thompson Center breakover guns.

Where headspace distance gets into a concern is when you buy once fired brass. I have read that the 5.56 headspace spec is 1.592 which is .037 longer than the .223 spec. I don't believe that number is true but some ammo suppliers are using that number for a spec, I don't understand why. Case gauges are nice but they don't replace a good set of calipers.

My first post here and I write a book, sorry

[bigedp51]

Hello,

I am getting frustrated with reloading 223 because one out of every 7-10 rounds (give or take) will not drop fully into my EGW 7-hole chamber gage. Specifically, I am using winchester 556 NATO once fired cases.

These rounds typically drop freely into the EGW 5.56 case gage, but NOT the EGW 223 gage. The base of the finished round typically sits just proud of the gage surface.

You are resizing once fired military 5.56 cases that were fired in a larger diameter and longer headspaced military chamber. If these cases were fired in a machine gun the chamber is even larger in diameter and cause more "spring back" issues.

If you pause at the top of the ram stroke and count to three you will reduce the amount of brass spring back. By pausing at the top of the ram stroke you are telling the brass that you are the boss and to stay put.

When I resize once fired .223/5.56 brass I size the case twice and the second time rotate the case 180 degrees pausing at the top of the ram stroke.

Not only does pausing help with spring back problems it also helps reduce neck runout.

As you can see below not all chambers are the same and different type and manufactured cartridge cases will spring back at different rates and vary in diameter and headspace length after sizing.

[G29SF]

Not to hijack 21 guns thread but I just bought a Dillon case gage and found out some of my resized brass is sticking up just a tiny bit. I have the sizer set up so that the shell plate is touching the sizer on the up stroke. It a Lee die set do I need to find another die that will set the shoulder back that little bit more.

Make sure there are no extractor nicks on the rim of your cases. There are alot of guns that will nick them.

If there are nicks, you can quickly file the nicks smooth. I'll bet that they will guage correctly.

I agree with the above post.

If most of your rounds drop into the EGW .223 gage -- but some don't -- it is a case issue because the gage is not changing from round to round. I drop every round I load into a case gage (I have case gages for all of my calibers). The only time I have had issues is where lead built-up around the case mouth (on pistol rounds) or when an extractor mark protuded a little. Both situation are easily fixed and probably would not have resulted in any problem had I just boxed them up.

By the way... when available, I prefer Dillon case gages. They seem most accurate to me. I bought a Wilson gage once for 357 SIG... and hate it. Not only does it not do what I thought it should do, I think it is incorrect on what it IS supposed to do. I have dropped factory rounds in that gage and things are off. I simply use my 357 SIG barrel for a gage on those rounds. (Easy to do with a pistol barrel.)

[SevoTT]

bigedp51 good info and thanks. Would running the cases through a Casepro fix this.

[bigedp51]

bigedp51 good info and thanks. Would running the cases through a Casepro fix this.

I would rather pause for three seconds while using a small base die than spend $225.00 for the case pro die and $698.03 for the rolling machine, but I'm a cheap bastard.

Edited February 17, 2014 by bigedp51