3 gun sucking away uspsa shooters?

[MarkCO]

Ryan hit one of the nails on the head...3Gun has much larger industry support because we use significantly more guns/gear/ammo.

[Rimcrew]

I wish 3G would suck away some USPSA shooters in my area - then it wouldn't take over half a day to shoot a weekend USPSA match.

USPSA seems to be doing just fine here. Three gun is doing well too. Choices for everyone, just the way it should be.

[Shooter116]

Mark is right. One look at the prize tables for any major or even regional match will show you why people are flocking to 3Gun. I finished 4th in Limited at Xtreme and took $600 worth of stuff off the price table versus Dawson grip tape that I got for being 4th B in Limited at Cowtown classic. The matches cost the exact same amount to shoot. Where is my money going to go next year??

[raleck]

I can see the connection, but I myself have made it a point to stay active in USPSA. 3-Gun is a monster in and of itself, but it is also multi-faceted. I think some of the best 3-gunners are the shooters that stay active in each individual sport (USPSA action pistol, Tactical/practical shotgun...etc). Just my two cents, but I have found that since I started shooting 3 gun, I've become more interested in every shooting sport - not shooting exclusively one sport.

[lawboy]

I have not gotten into 3-gun. Several reasons for that. But the main reason is that I just enjoy USPSA so much and do not want to take time away from USPSA matches to shoot 3-gun. Another big reason is that I really enjoy DVC and hit factor scoring. The scoring system used in 3-gun does not appeal to me whatsoever. I have a deep commitment to continuing to develop my pistol skills for life. At some point in time that will lead me to 3-gun but so far that has not happened. Prize tables are not an incentive for me. I can buy what I want. I shoot matches because I enjoy them.

[2MoreChains]

I also shoot matches because I enjoy them, and I enjoy 3-gun as well as USPSA pistol matches. I'm fortunate that where I live each month you can shoot 3 L1 USPSA matches and one 3GN 3-gun match within 15 to 45 minutes drive of my house. On some weekends when the yard doesn't need attention I can shoot a match on Sat and Sunday if I am willing to drive 2 hrs. USPSA pistol is by far the dominant of the two sports and I enjoy 3-gun for what it is, but I just shoot local 3-gun matches. Its the challenge of competing with all three guns and developing that skill that draws me.

That said, the higher cost of 3-gun and the extra time it takes (which I don't have a lot of in the summer) to maintain proficiency with all 3 guns is tough, and admittedly I don't get in as much practice time with the shotgun and rifle as I would like. But I still enjoy plugging away at local matches and lately its been starting to come together for me better than it was 4 or 5 yrs ago when I first started 3-gun so that is reqarding in of itself. Personally the 3GN method of scoring (1A or 2 hits anywhere) doesn't bother me, and I just look at that as license to unleash even more speed and hose away at the close range paper targets unless there are no-shoots or partial hardcover. Fortunately (or unfortunately as the case may be) our local matches will also incorporate quite a bit of rifle steel from 100-600 yds or slugs out to 100 yds, which makes the 1A or 2 anywhere scoring pale by comparison. I don't know about the rest of you but hitting some of those steel targets in some of the goofy positions we come up with or from unsupported is still a challenge, especially at distance.

[DocMedic]

Admittedly 3gun has pulled me away from USPSA. This past weekend was the first time in at least over a year that I've shot a pistol only match which was the Rocky Mountain 300. I do still enjoy it ( And Jerry Westcott throws one hell of a match) but its just feels like its missing something. (rifle, shotgun ) and I was reminded of that when I stood there and watch a shooter argue about that "Perfect Double" shot at 20yards away...

Edited June 4, 2014 by DocMedic

[MarkCO]

I have also seen several people try 3Gun for a match or two, up to a few majors, and then sell all of their stuff and go back to pistol. Sure it is harder, but it is also a different crowd as CHA-LEE alluded to. I know a LOT of pistol only shooters, but I am not sure I have any 3Gunner friends who only shoot 3Gun. Most have 2 or more other pursuits related to firearms that they enjoy.

As 3Gun sorts itself out into what appears to be 4 major types of matches, it will be interesting to see how much appeal the sport has for those who have just been chasing prize tables and a few seconds on TV.

[Service Desk]

3 Gun is like Cowboy shooting without the dress-up, I LIKE IT !

[polymerfeelsweirdman]

I just wish 3 gun was cheaper...

[Ladyrr]

I started shooting again just to get into 3gun, I started with a few USPSA matches to get me going then started training full time for 3 gun.

The biggest issue I have with 3gun is I can't find many places to practice weapon transitions and shooting rifle plate racks between matches. Shooting paper targets at the indoor ranges just don't cut it for me. I enjoy the running and gunning with long guns as well as my pistol.

Locally we have 2 USPSA club matches a month and 1 monthly club 3gun match. After going to the western regionals for the 3 gun nation match last month, I went to the club USPSA match 2 weeks ago and then a 3 gun match yesterday. I can say that I was laughing at how easy it was to pack and go to my USPSA club match that morning. Light range bag and ammo, felt like I was forgetting something. I had just purchased a gun buggy while in Vegas and it seemed like over kill at the USPSA match. that was until squad mates started to put there items on the buggy.

The prizes at 3 gun nation are unbelievable.,even with my stage issues with ammo and new sights being on my pistol all of 3 days before my match in Vegas, I came in 125th in my class and was pleasantly surprised at taking home over $500.00 in gift certificates and prizes (i was expecting nothing for my less then stellar performance). It was my first major match and will not be the last match.

I will be using my local USPSA as part of my training for 3 gun. So too say that 3Gun is taking away from USPSA I would say no. you are actually getting new shooters into the sport because 3 gun can not be shot every weekend.

PS: I did find 5 stand to be exciting this past week while testing out some new chokes for the shotgun. So I can't see how 3Gun had done anything other then open up my eyes to other shooting sports trying to train for 3 Gun.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Ladyrr

[Jaycwebb]

While I agree in principle that prize structures should favor a compeptive "winners" environment, that isn't how you grow a sport. You grow a sport and encourage players to show up by making them realize that if they show up and don't utterly fail they have a good shot at walking with a cool reward.

I'm not saying it's "fair" in the darwinian sense of the word. But this IS how you grow a sport.

[ctay]

I guess I go against the grain. I say that plaques should go to the winners but prizes provided by the sponsors should go out by random draw. The sponsors are not trying to reach only the best shooters (who likely already have sponsors for the equipment they may win) but rather they are trying to reach the much larger population of shooters who will likely not be in contention to win the match but do have disposable income that could support the sponsor.

To those who say that this is the same as a "participation award" I think you are missing the point. Look at the match as two things - a match and a raffle. The winners of the match get recognition and a plaque - what they earned. Anyone who took part in the match is entered into the raffle and have a chance to win something from the prize table.

[Jaycwebb]

I agree. If your goal is to see the sport grow you need to make sure newer shooters feel rewarded.

[Vlad]

Hmm .. we hand multi thousand dollar prizes to new baseball players? Should we do that to grow the sport of baseball? Look, people shouldn't shoot 3gun because they win prizes, they should shoot it cause its fun.. Frankly I don't want people who shoot for prizes only around me, I know a couple and I wish I didn't, they end up not being nice people. So if you I grow the sport by rewarding people who want free stuff I'm not sure I've improved the sport.

[wugguswhompus]

Tarheel 3 Gun runs over a 100 shooters monthly in their matches. Multiple stages with many moving parts. Somehow we usually finish by 1-2 pm and tablet scores are posted before I leave the range.....local uspsa club runs only 80-90 shooters and it's usually an all day affair to shoot 100-120 rounds. Why so slow? Scores are done on a tablet too...just post later....there is more money in 3 gun...on the table and in your gear. A very affordable rig and some simple shooting fundamentals have netted mesome large payouts and top finishes. People want to take all their toys out for test runs and 3 gun allows just about anything. One gun can become stagnant.....3 guns will usually leave your brain steaming. Every club has issues with setup and tear down. Some shooters will never help. The thought is why would I pay a match fee at a club that I pay more fees to, just to shoot money downrange and then work to clean up at the end. Makes some sense to me. I do work quite a few matches but consider my self a lazy crew member. Some clubs have now added benefits to a setup/tear down crew. IE free match, gear, and others. Some clubs just pay a crew to do it. Where does your money go in uspsa? Does my match fee go anywhere. I understand maintenance and targets. I run the Usmc team. I know money goes for our classifiers. Where does the rest go? Not to the prize table. Take a look at Rocky mtn 3 gun. I'm pretty sure Denise and Jj would sell their house to put more stuff on the table....300k on a prize table between 300 shooters.... and only a 250-300 match fee. Yeah....3 gun is the new x games. Boxing is great for the Olympics, but when I want to drink a beer and enjoy myself, I'll watch dudes beat each other in MMA.

[RescueYou]

I was immediately hooked on 3-gun after my first match. I personally think it's far more exciting and takes a lot more thinking and planning. I honestly can't remember the last USPA match I've shot since discovering 3-gun.

[MarkCO]

Sportsmanship is a dying form of integrity and not everyone is a winner. I have friends I compete with, heck I compete with my kids. If I get beat, it is because the other person put in more time, effort, determination, etc. to be better. IQ and athletic ability are worthless unless used, and they will degrade if not sharpened against good competition.

So yes, the prize table and TV coverage does bring in some glory hounds to 3Gun, but not most. The competition and different skillset from USPSA does bring in some competitors, but it will never be for everyone. There are lots of shooting sports, some I prefer over others, but I will always endeavor to do what I can to protect and promote all the shooting sports so long as it helps the sport. When there are aspects that I believe are hurting the sports, I will endeavor to work on those and diminish those aspects. Yep, some of that is going to be my personal opinion.

Is the 3Gun bubble going to burst? Maybe, maybe not, but it will certainly change over the next several years. Of the four people who really got me into 3Gun in about 2005, only one still shoots at all, and 2 were at the top of the game. The prize tables were not as big, there were hardly even articles about the matches and it was the red-headed step-child of the action shooting sports. Now it is on top and those who denigrated it are coming over to it. In a few years, there may be another sport that takes the limelight and the glory hounds may follow.

IMHO, IDPA and USPSA are also in a state of flux and if some of the recent trends are not reversed, the growing vacuum might get filled by an organization/company/sport that does not even exist today.

[Vlad]

Mark, I also thing some people, no matter how good they are, can be .. how shall put this .. shooting hipsters? Some people don't like it when too many people invade their sport. We see this at various levels from club on up, I think.

[MarkCO]

Of course Vlad, there are a lot of moving parts and people change for various reasons. I went from Silhouette to Highpower to Bowling Pins, to USPSA, to IDPA to USPSA to 3Gun while taking 2-4 years off at times and trying out probably 6 other shooting sports as well. All for different reasons.

[shopgun]

We here in northern Indiana are fortunate to have a 4 club 14 match multi gun series this year with a high 16 shootoff at the last match. I have shot USPSA for years but 3 gun is definately my go to match if there is a schedule conflict. I love the challenge of being proficiant in all 3 guns and agree with Cha-Lee as to "generalist" vs "specialists". The prize table thing means nothing to me. I can afford to buy/shoot what I want and grateful that I can compete without embarassing myself at my age.

[Vespid_Wasp]

i have noticed that many of the regular shooters i have seen in the past were absent at quite a few matches this summer. I bumped into a couple of them and asked them where they have been, and they told me they are doing 3 gun these days.

So have you seen 3 gun pull shooters away from Uspsa?

This describes me to a tee; shot USPSA for several years then got bit by the 3-Gun bug. After shooting some great outlaw 3-gun matches, it's just really hard to get excited about a pistol-only match. Upside is that when I do shoot a pistol match, the prep and recovery/cleaning is SO much easier than 3-Gun.

Yup. I started in USPSA and have gravitated to 3-gun. Pistol only is a heck of a lot cheaper though..... I have more an my optic than I ever would have spent on a dedicated pistol back in '06. Work has kept me away from any matches so far this year. I plan to shoot a little USPSA before my next major 3-gun.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

I started with 3-gun, and because I wanted to get better with my pistol, I now shoot USPSA. I definitely do not miss 3-gun matches for a USPSA match, and will not schedule a major USPSA match in place of a major 3-Gun match....but if it weren't for 3-gun I wouldn't be shooting USPSA.

Now I enjoy both disciplines and find that shooting one seems to help with the other, and vice versa.

As for prize tables, it may draw in those top guys with the prospect of taking home a gun instead of just a plaque and a picture, but 75% of the shooters who show up are not leaving with a gun unless they go to a match like FNH! Most of us shoot 3-gun because we like the complexity of shooting ALL THREE guns, trying to master all three, and trying to plan a stage where each portion of the stage plan has to be based around the limitations of each individual gun. At USPSA matches, I typically have my stage plan in a matter of seconds, since i only have to worry about a single gun after all! Of course, I shoot limited with my 3-gun pistol so reloads are pretty simple and easily planned.....but try to plan where to reload your shotgun, while moving, to avoid lost time.

As for scoring, I understand both sides of the argument. Here is what I experienced. I was used to shooting 6" and 4" square/rectangle steel while walking and moving on my practice range and at matches like those at Rockcastle, when it came to shoot A-zones at 2/3 the distance, I had difficulty slowing down to a "USPSA" pace to ensure I got a SECOND A-zone hit instead of a C or D. Now that I'm shooting both, I find that when I try to be fast, I'm hitting two alphas but I'm working my way towards always being comfortable/confident enough to do that. When I go back to 3-gun, I tend to open that speed up and go a little faster knowing my first shot is usually in the A-zone and I could afford a second shot Mike.

I was talking with a local match director and he is constantly amazed that nearly every USPSA shooter he shoots with, has an AR15 and a shotgun that could work or a friend who would loan them one, yet rarely do they accept the invite to try 3-gun. On the flip side, when several of us were invited to come try USPSA, we jumped at the opportunity to try a pistol only match where we only had to bring one ammo type, one set of mags,..... I often wonder some times if the USPSA shooters who don't even want to try 3-gun are used to being at or near the top, and don't want to show up to find themselves mid-pack or worse. I know, taking top 1-2 at local matches and top 15-20% or better at 3-gun majors, I expected to dominate most people at a pistol match and was humbled to find that I was MAYBE better than 60% of the people there! Being humbled pushed me to do better at USPSA tho, and has translated into me doing better in 3-gun.

[MarkCO]

I just think it is different tastes. My natural inclination is to shoot precision type matches, but they are too boring for the most part, and I like the people in 3Gun a lot more. I have a lot of friends who are name recognizable GMs and I can tell you with certainty, that it is not fear of not being "good enough" at 3Gun, on the contrary, it is the desire to truly master the pistol before adding in another skill. Sure, there are some pistol GMs that try 3Gun and get spanked and their ego prefer to go back to pistol. Some people are wired as a "specialist" and some as a "generalist". Some people like to play video games, some baseball, some football, some ride bikes, and some just watch on TV. All different personalities drawn to participate and or observe for different reasons.

When someone comes up with a match that involves driving an off-road racer 500 miles with a very diverse array of shooting challenges every 50 miles, maybe I can get near the top of the heap.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

I just think it is different tastes. My natural inclination is to shoot precision type matches, but they are too boring for the most part, and I like the people in 3Gun a lot more. I have a lot of friends who are name recognizable GMs and I can tell you with certainty, that it is not fear of not being "good enough" at 3Gun, on the contrary, it is the desire to truly master the pistol before adding in another skill. Sure, there are some pistol GMs that try 3Gun and get spanked and their ego prefer to go back to pistol. Some people are wired as a "specialist" and some as a "generalist". Some people like to play video games, some baseball, some football, some ride bikes, and some just watch on TV. All different personalities drawn to participate and or observe for different reasons.

When someone comes up with a match that involves driving an off-road racer 500 miles with a very diverse array of shooting challenges every 50 miles, maybe I can get near the top of the heap.

I see what you're saying. I was referring more to the people around here, than as a general statement, but the referral is what makes me wonder about other areas too. We all have our natural inclinations, mine is towards 3-gun. I guess I have a different way of looking at it tho. I shoot USPSA because it helps my pistol skills for 3-gun, and have therefore joined USPSA as a member as a result. I would love to shoot more long range and precision matches, not just because they are different types of matches or the fact that I love pushing distance with my .308, but also because it will help with long range targets in 3-gun. Up until the end of May, I would only attend an all shotgun match to help in that department for 3-gun, but had so much fun at the Benelli shotgun match that I wish i would have signed up for more. Hello new sport to pay for!

I guess if my only concern was pistol, I wouldn't be inclined to test rifle and shotgun skills since that isn't as likely to transfer skills back to USPSA, where my desires rest.