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Heavy Metal Rifle


bornhunter04

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I'm seriously considering switching to heavy division and need to start thinking about what rifle to get, etc so when the funds are available I'll know what to get. I've been running my pump in tac ops and don't want to give it up, so I figure i'd take the more epensive route and buy/build a new rifle....

Anyway, I'm torn between a few options.

Option 1:

Buy M1A can get springfield in the $15-1600 range

Option 2:

DPMS 3g1 in .308 around the $1500 saves money for glass (vortex razor hd II)

Option 3:

Go all the way down the rabbit hole and Build a .308 Ar-10 on ma-ten platform (can't afford JP) this would be in the $22-2500.

I already reload for .308 so ammo is not an issue. I like the modularity of the ar platform and ease of maintenance.

But I've always wanted an M1A.....

I would like the ability to mount a scope. How hard is it to mount/unmount a scope on an M1A inclusing removing the scope mount?

What barrel length would be good for an M1A for 3 gun? Would a scout model with a red-dot mounted out front be good for distance shots?

I like the idea of the ar-10 because I could get additional uppers for 6.5CM to match my other bolt gun.

So, what if, I got a dpms 3g1 .308 and run a red dot and then have a scope for differant divisions? Does anyone have any experience with one of these.

What do you guys with experience in Heavy divisions think?

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I ran a SOCOM 16 in Heavy for a bit. I dropped mine into a Troy modular chassis, which allowed to add AR stocks and grips, plus gave me rails to mount a scope. It adds about a pound to the gun, but I think it's a little more useful overall (maybe not for competition, but this is also my go rifle for a lot of other things). The chassis also puts the recoil straight into your shoulder instead of above it. I also put an EOTech onto it with the 3x EOTech-branded magnifier. It works pretty well.

If you don't go this route, I recommend going the route of putting a full length top rail on the gun. The traditional scope mount limits the amount of distance you can put between two rings. The SOCOM-16 also has a scout rail, so you could put a red dot or similar optic there.

Swapping mags is a little more time consuming, and you have new ergonomics to learn with the M1A over an AR.

I would feel comfortable engaging steel out to about 300 yards with my M1A and a red dot. If I had to engage farther than that, I'd want magnified optics.

I haven't fired an AR-10 rifle, but the ergonomics are just a tad different (the mag release button is about 1/4" farther out, for example), but close enough to adapt quickly.

I've since switched to Open so I can use my Akdal in the shotgun portion (I'm too lazy to practice reloading my Benelli).

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If your intention is to run nothing but heavy irons, the standard 22" M1a with a decent comp is really hard to beat. They handle extremely well, most are plenty accurate for our sport and they are still one of the very coolest rifles ever made. If you intend to run optics there is only one M1a for the job and that is the LRB with the integrated scope rail. Unfortunately, the LRB is $2800 and a year or more wait. So if you intend to run optics, or jumb between divisions (as I do), then an AR10 platform is the only way to go. Adding a sight rail to a Springfield is a waste of time for anything more than just dabbling in the division. The DPMS 3G1 is a decent rifle right out of the box. Polish up the chamber, break in the barrel properly and you should have a good performing rifle, equally capable of running well in both divisions. It's true that the JP is a better rifle in every respect, but if it were all about the rifle then Tate Moots and Kwan Watson wouldn't beat me every year. You can have the best rifle in the world, but skill will get you to the winners circle. If you have the scratch, the LRP-07 is the way to go, but if you don't have the money, the DPMS will get the job done very nicely.

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I have a 22" M1a and a built-by-me AR10 with JP parts on Tactical Machining receivers.

If you intend to shoot lots of Heavy Irons the M1a is tough to beat, I would go with either the 22" or 18" barrel and put a comp on it. Both barrel lengths have the same sight radius. The M1a handles like a shotgun, the sights are great, and the gun runs and runs and runs. Mag changes require a different technique but can be just as fast if you practice. Scopes on the M1a are a difficult proposition. I don't run scopes on mine and from what I understand there aren't many good options.

If you want to switch between divisions or shoot lots of scope than the AR10 is the only way to go. If you have the tools and know-how building one is easy and saves some money. The AR10 is built to mount scopes, can switch uppers, and has good options for iron sights. Make sure to get a DPMS compatible receiver so you can use P-mags. Most AR15 receiver parts (hammers, triggers, safeties, etc.) are cross compatible with AR10's, there's only a few parts that are AR10 specific. You can also run AR15 receiver extensions & stocks if you use a buffer made for that purpose.

If you want to go the 3G1 route remember you can always upgrade parts later, that's one of the beautiful things about the AR family.

I would buy the M1a if you want one, they're awesome guns. I just wouldn't think of it a scope gun.

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I have both an M1A and a DPMS based AR 308.

The M1A has been accurized, and sits in an E2 stock. I shot it in Irons at last years He Man Nationals. Lighting differences hurt me far more than accuracy with the gun. The M1A is probably a bit more reliable, but, it does have quirks. Brass takes a beating from them, since the pressure is higher than in the AR system. It does not translate to optics well. I got a scope mount from M14.ca. You pull the rear sight out and the mount attaches in the pocket for the rear sight. It's a much more solid system than the side mounts. It places the scope a bit high, kind of like an AR, so you need some sort of cheek piece.

My DPMS was purchased as a complete factory gun. I live in Mass, and the gun was Mass compliant, which was good and bad. It had an Ace stock on it (good) and a 16" non floated barrel with a pinned and welded Miculek brake ( not really bad) I pulled the barrel off and installed a Rainier Arms 20" select barrel and JP handguard. The gun shot extremely well at the He Man this year in optics.

So, if you want to shoot Irons, get an M1A, if you want to shoot optics, get a 308 AR. Better yet, get both!

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Another vote for M1A here, but only as an Irons gun. The 18" with a Titan would be about perfect. I've got a Socom II with a Titan and its as flat as can be albeit VERY loud. I put a different front sight on it designed with interchangeable "blades" (fat blade insert for shorter matches; finer blade for matches with longer stages) that made a great difference.

As others have said, if you think it will spend more time scoped, the AR308 platforms accommodate this much more elegantly.

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the M1a has probably won more HM matches than any other platform, I love mine. But if an optic is in your future JP LRP07 is by far the best route for the AR platform. You do not give up anything by going with the m1a, more sight radius, lighter reciprocating mass, and reloads are just as fast as an AR platform.

trapr

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the M1a has probably won more HM matches than any other platform, I love mine. But if an optic is in your future JP LRP07 is by far the best route for the AR platform. You do not give up anything by going with the m1a, more sight radius, lighter reciprocating mass, and reloads are just as fast as an AR platform.

trapr

I shot an M1a scout recently and it was very smooth with surprisingly light recoil even though it did seem to hop slightly up and to the right rather than strait back like an AR-15. Are most general AR-10 type platforms a bit on the bucky side in comparison? That carrier group is absolutely huge!

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I went with the DPMS, mainly because I'm too cheap to use a gunsmith and it was a system I already knew how to work on. When most of the big matches let red dots into Iron divisions, I was glad I made that choice... as putting optics on the M1A platform is a pain in the butt.

308 PMags are a huge point in the AR's favor as well.

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Thanks for the responses. I'm still very torn. Whether, I get an M1A or an AR-10 and i go to shoot irons, i'll probalby run a red dot. So, therefore, it makes me lean towards the 18" scout so i can mount the red dot out front. What kind of mount does it take to co-witness your red dot with the irons?<br /><br />What's the deal with m1a mags? I see some for $30 and others for $100. Does it matter? Are m1a's picky about mags? I know pmags are a huge plus, so i'd only go with a dpms style ar-10.

@Dan, How hard exactly is an m1a on brass? Does it shorten the life expectancy of the brass or just ding it up pretty bad?

Edited by bornhunter04
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M1A's are notoiously tough on brass and there are special reloading considerations associated with that platform. Tons of literature on the subject available, but you do need to be familiar with the specifics of reloading for the M1A. It was a really tough choice for me too. The M1A is one of my all time favorite rifles and they really do shoot exceptionally nice. It was the versatility of the AR10 which made me swing that way, since I shoot it in irons and with glass.

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@Dan, How hard exactly is an m1a on brass? Does it shorten the life expectancy of the brass or just ding it up pretty bad?

The M1A unlocks the bolt while the pressure is quite high in comparison to the 308 AR's. It stretches it quite a bit, making some of the once fired military brass a no go in them, at least not after 2 firings. The machine gun fired brass has been stretched and the M1A finishes it. Head separations are not uncommon, especially on the 3rd firing on.

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Dan Sierpina, on 26 Jul 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

bornhunter04, on 26 Jul 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

@Dan, How hard exactly is an m1a on brass? Does it shorten the life expectancy of the brass or just ding it up pretty bad?

The M1A unlocks the bolt while the pressure is quite high in comparison to the 308 AR's. It stretches it quite a bit, making some of the once fired military brass a no go in them, at least not after 2 firings. The machine gun fired brass has been stretched and the M1A finishes it. Head separations are not uncommon, especially on the 3rd firing on.

Wow, didn't realize it was quite that bad. May get an ar-10 and hold off on an m1a until i have bucket loads of brass.....
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I have both an M1A and an AR10. I love the M1A, but compete with the AR10. My AR10 started off as an Armalite AR10A2, 20" rifle. I sent the upper to JP and had them install a low profile gas block, a JP XL handguard and put the front sight right behind the comp (I didn't have the tools to remove the barrel nut on an AR10 and JP did it cheaper than I could buy tools). It has a SJC titan comp. With this setup, the sight radius is only 1/2" shorter than my M1A and it has less muzzle rise (my M1A is a GI parts kit on a Springfield receiver). The weight is comparable and the AR10 is slightly shorter in overall length. I have heard horror stories about Armalite AR10s and reliability, mine has been reliable with Gen I and Gen II magazines, it even works with some M14 mags that I cut the mag catch notch in , it just won't hold the bolt open on the last shot.

If money were no issue and I needed to buy a new Heavy Metal rifle (ha, I said NEED and new rifle in the same sentence), I would call JP and ask them to build a 20" gun with a light contour barrel, XL handguard and one of their front sights clamped right behind the comp.

In the end, either rifle will serve you well as long as you get to know it.

Hurley

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Dan Sierpina, on 26 Jul 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

bornhunter04, on 26 Jul 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

@Dan, How hard exactly is an m1a on brass? Does it shorten the life expectancy of the brass or just ding it up pretty bad?

The M1A unlocks the bolt while the pressure is quite high in comparison to the 308 AR's. It stretches it quite a bit, making some of the once fired military brass a no go in them, at least not after 2 firings. The machine gun fired brass has been stretched and the M1A finishes it. Head separations are not uncommon, especially on the 3rd firing on.

Wow, didn't realize it was quite that bad. May get an ar-10 and hold off on an m1a until i have bucket loads of brass.....

The National Guard Marksmanship armorer that taught me how to accurize the guns told me to use new brass for 600 yard loads, up to thrice fired brass for the shorter distances and then just practice with it after that. He was a highpower shooter, obviously.

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If you want a do-it-all rifle, get the AR pattern gun. As several of the previous posts stated, it is a more adaptable platform when it comes to mounting optics and making equipment changes.

I shot my first major match in 2005 at RM3G in the He-Man division. I ran a Federal Ordinance M14 rifle that I borrowed from a buddy. I shot He Man Irons at RM3G for the next couple of years with a loaded package Springfield M1A. It is more than accurate enough and can be just as quick as any 308 AR. I eventually transitioned over to the 308 AR because I wanted to keep the same style of rifle in my hands regardless of the division I shoot.

There are several good manufacturers that make a 308 AR that will perform out of the box with the best in my opinion being the JP LRP-07. I don't own one, but I have shot a few and they are like shooting a light weight 223 with hot loads. They are hands down the top fuel dragster of the 308 AR family. I currently run a Noveske N6 with a 16" barrel (I have not found a need for anything longer when using a 308, that includes the 400 - 600 yard shots that are found at RM3G). I have a DPMS carbine that has been a solid performer also.

Of the options you listed, I would go with the DPMS 3G1 308. You can use whatever sighting system makes happy and you can drop a JP barrel in it and turn it into a sub moa machine.

Kuan

Edited by ShootfastRunfaster
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Just curious - why does no one shoot the FAL in this class?

No reason not to. I think Kelly Neal ran one for a while. Optics mounts for the FAL are okay at best.

We had a shooter on our squad at the He Man shooting an HK 91 (or copy)

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Just curious - why does no one shoot the FAL in this class?

It takes a lot of work and money to make one consistently accurate, and the iron sights are not friendly for this game. DSA makes a great version, but in the end the other platforms are easier to personalize.

Kuan

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You're best bet is to just not shoot Heavy Mental!

But isn't every class/division heavy mental? ;):D

Some are much Heavier on the Mental. The only cheap part is the pump shotgun.

One thing I did find ironic was I could shoot the Lightest loads in my pump shotgun in the Heaviest Division.

A chrono at an outlaw match would be a riot!

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Jesse Tischauser, on 29 Jul 2013 - 12:30 AM, said:

Rob01, on 28 Jul 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

Jesse Tischauser, on 28 Jul 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

You're best bet is to just not shoot Heavy Mental!

But isn't every class/division heavy mental? ;):D

Some are much Heavier on the Mental. The only cheap part is the pump shotgun.

One thing I did find ironic was I could shoot the Lightest loads in my pump shotgun in the Heaviest Division.

A chrono at an outlaw match would be a riot!

\

Your right the cheap part is the pump, I've got about as much into the nordic tube extension for my nova as I paid for the shotgun itself :)

All i own are pump's, never been a fan of auto's, and I've always wanted a semi in .308, so this is the perfect excuse to buy one, since I actually need one to switch classes.

I almost bought/built an ar-10 this spring but had a custom bolt built instead, so now it's time to start thinking about actually getting one. I'm still very torn about whether or not to get an m1a or an ar-10. Lots of thinking to do.

For the price savings of an optic, I could buy a boatload of .308 brass to run through an m1a, or i could get an ar for modularity/familiarity as it would be extremely similiar as my ar-15.....

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  • 3 weeks later...

Just curious - why does no one shoot the FAL in this class?

It takes a lot of work and money to make one consistently accurate, and the iron sights are not friendly for this game. DSA makes a great version, but in the end the other platforms are easier to personalize.

Kuan

I ran a FAL in Heavy Metal before it was heavy metal, back when they were still calling them Soldier of Fortune matches, and you just run what you brung.

Kuan is 100% correct here, the FAL is best thought of as a .308 version of an AK. They are stone-ax reliable, are more tolerant of damaged mags than any other rifle I have ever seen, more AMMO tolerant than any other rifle I have ever seen, and out to 200Y I could hang with just about any other rifle. Past 200, the front sight is wider than the target, and the Rear is a joke. I have tried 7 different types of rear sights on my FAL, and am currently running a HK drum sight. Nothing available gives both accuracy AND adjustability for range. Accurate, adjustable for Range or Durable, pick ONE.

The other problem is most FAL's are 3-4 minute guns, with the exceptional ones being 2-3MOA with the right ammo. My FAL is a 2.5 minute gun with 155's loaded to 2800fps out of my 20" barrel, but 4 minute with damn near anything remotely resembling ammo, including the steel cased crap. 3MOA just isn't accurate enough for this game, when you are fighting crap sights too.

So, I switched to a M1A on the advice of Bryan and Pat, and found myself actually hitting targets beyond 300 Yards with shocking regularity. For next year I am planning on having an open sighted AR platform .308 ready to play with, but that's mostly because I just cant leave anything alone and there just isn't much left on the M1A to mess with...

Anyway, I am just up in Springfield, let me know if you want to try before you buy, I'll let you shoot any of my guns that you want to...

Edited by barrysuperhawk
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