Shotgun & Rifle Hi Capacity Magazine Restrictions

[jdknotts1]

I'm with EkuJustice. No sense in worrying about what the new shooter has "lying around". Most times new shooters will not be competitive with the seasoned vet anyway. They will most likely (most definitely) buy more gear as they progress. They can choose which route they want to go.

30rnd restriction on rifle? For what purpose? So you are forced to make a reload to finish out the stage? kinda starting to sound like IDPA if you ask me.

[B.J. Norris]

For the most part, changing rules in response to innovation only stifles innovation IMHO.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

For the most part, changing rules in response to innovation only stifles innovation IMHO.

agreed.......the problem with leaving all the innovation in Open class is that newer shooters like myself do not want to shoot Open with the limited number of competitors and shitty prize tables. (I'm not here for a lecture about shooting a division or match based on prizes...I like shooting HTO and the prizes suck there too, but I typically get to shoot my TacOps gear with my TacOps scope tossed onto my .308). If the innovation is saved for less participated divisions, there would be less innovation IMO.

I don't like the idea of limiting the mag size or tube capacity on rifle or shotgun for TacOps. If limits were in place, leave the 8+1 start in place, and 10rd max tube maybe (still wouldnt like it tho). The XRail tubes only come in 10rd variety, and most of the shooters I shoot with are extending to 10rd capacity. At least with 10rd cap, you aren't leaving ammo on the ground when you are one shell off on your count and try to quad load twice. Off the shelf, common, 26" barreled shotguns are roughly fluch with 10rd mag tubes...letting anyone convert their bird hunting shotgun over for a 3-gun season with 10rd tube, before converting it back to hunt with. With Magpul's new PMAG 40, C-Products 40rd mag, and other high production number over 30rd mags...why would you say that someone in a tactical situation WOULDN'T use a 40rd PMAG if they had the chance? I've been playing with my 40rd PMAG and honestly, I wouldnt mind it being an inch taller when shooting prone. I may not shoot prone like everyone tho....I find 20rd mags to be useless and only own them to limit them to 10rds to legally hunt with in Missouri. I plan to run my 40rd PMAG as my standard/first/go-to mag in matches from here on out. 140mm pistol is the standard...I've only heard the Alaskan talk about limiting that, but also mentioning it as a "production" division!

I honestly COULD see ADDING a "production" division at local matches. Only allow internal modifications to the gun in addition to changing the sights (basically IDPA/USPSA Production rules, no brass magwells, no grip reductions, no stippling, no modifications to the factory configuration....), 15-17rd limits on 9mm, maximum slide length on the pistol (no long slides), 8rd cap on semi-auto shotguns with no limit on barrel length (don't shun people for using their hunting shotgun), 30rd cap on rifles, and maybe only tactical based sights....i.e. EoTech, Aimpoint, Elcan, ACOG, and various knockoffs of those sights for those who can't afford the nicer stuff. I don't know that it would ever take off into major matches, but it would offer a level playing field to compare skills with "duty" type weapons, and possibly draw in more Police to polish skills.

Edited July 29, 2013 by EaZeNuTZ33

[Alaskapopo]

I'm with EkuJustice. No sense in worrying about what the new shooter has "lying around". Most times new shooters will not be competitive with the seasoned vet anyway. They will most likely (most definitely) buy more gear as they progress. They can choose which route they want to go.

30rnd restriction on rifle? For what purpose? So you are forced to make a reload to finish out the stage? kinda starting to sound like IDPA if you ask me.

What purpose? To have a division without a gear race. Most new shooters getting into three gun love the sport but are turned off by the money they have to spend. Having a division that caters to those who want to keep the costs lower is a good thing and has proven popular in our little experiment up here. Please don't compare this idea to IDPA its nothing like that at all. Not bashing IDPA but the intent of this division is far from the intent of IDPA.

[Alaskapopo]

For the most part, changing rules in response to innovation only stifles innovation IMHO.

Limited is not about innovation. We are only tweaking the rules of limited to make it actually limited vs Tac optics minus the optic. Open is the place for innovation and Tac Optics. Limited is for guys who are using older obsolete technology generally from the start like Iron sights. Some people love the nostalga and the lower cost of these (limited divisions) Just saying we should make it a bit more limited. The purpose to give the pump shotgun a home outside of heavy metal which is almost dead, to give single stack pistols a fighting chance without having to pay for .308 ammo and shoot heavy metal. To basically have a division that is not a gear race. Me personally I shoot open most of the time but I listen to what our shooters want.

Pat

Edited July 29, 2013 by Alaskapopo

[mwx40x40]

I'm in favor of the 30 round rifle, 140mm pistol, and 8+1 in shotgun because I think it makes a more even playing field. Like you said Jesse, most people all ready have 30 round ar mags and 140 pistol mags. With some of the stuff now days it becomes somewhat of a gear race and not as much about who the actual better shooter/stage planner is.

IMO open is for the gear race.

+1 for 30,140mm & 8+1 all the other stuff can go in Open

[ClutchUSMC]

Do you guys really think it matters? You can either shoot or you cant. All you are going to accomplish is to allow nordic to make fewer lengths of tube and allow less creativity and innovation into the equipment we use.

More people have a 10/22 than 30 round mags, and its cheaper too, why don't we just restrict all rifles to factory ruger 10/22s?

I have never seen a top competitor complain about an equipment race. I have seen many top competitors take INFERIOR equipment and junk guys who thought they could buy their way to the top. Jeff Cramblit loading off armbands, Pat Kelley shooting a 1911 without sights, etc.

All you will accomplish is the guys that work hard to be the best will still be the best.

[jdknotts1]

I'm with EkuJustice. No sense in worrying about what the new shooter has "lying around". Most times new shooters will not be competitive with the seasoned vet anyway. They will most likely (most definitely) buy more gear as they progress. They can choose which route they want to go.

30rnd restriction on rifle? For what purpose? So you are forced to make a reload to finish out the stage? kinda starting to sound like IDPA if you ask me.

What purpose? To have a division without a gear race. Most new shooters getting into three gun love the sport but are turned off by the money they have to spend. Having a division that caters to those who want to keep the costs lower is a good thing and has proven popular in our little experiment up here. Please don't compare this idea to IDPA its nothing like that at all. Not bashing IDPA but the intent of this division is far from the intent of IDPA.

I shot my entire first year using basic gear and I didn't feel inferior or needing the hottest thing out at the time. I worked into the sport and figured out what I needed and what would allow me to progress. I'm two years into the game and just yesterday got my first ten round tube for my shotty. A gear race? No I don't think it is. Does the guy with a Surefire mag make him shoot faster than me? Does the 12 rnd tubes make the 100's of guys shooting them faster than me? No I don't believe so. It's a race against the clock. Not against the high capacity gear.

[Alaskapopo]

Do you guys really think it matters? You can either shoot or you cant. All you are going to accomplish is to allow nordic to make fewer lengths of tube and allow less creativity and innovation into the equipment we use.

More people have a 10/22 than 30 round mags, and its cheaper too, why don't we just restrict all rifles to factory ruger 10/22s?

I have never seen a top competitor complain about an equipment race. I have seen many top competitors take INFERIOR equipment and junk guys who thought they could buy their way to the top. Jeff Cramblit loading off armbands, Pat Kelley shooting a 1911 without sights, etc.

All you will accomplish is the guys that work hard to be the best will still be the best.

It mattered up here. New shooters have a perception that gear matters more than it does. This is just catering to them a bit to grow the sport. Also some good shooters up here prefer this division because of financial reasons or they simply want to use their duty gear if their LEO.

Pat

[Alaskapopo]

I'm with EkuJustice. No sense in worrying about what the new shooter has "lying around". Most times new shooters will not be competitive with the seasoned vet anyway. They will most likely (most definitely) buy more gear as they progress. They can choose which route they want to go.

30rnd restriction on rifle? For what purpose? So you are forced to make a reload to finish out the stage? kinda starting to sound like IDPA if you ask me.

What purpose? To have a division without a gear race. Most new shooters getting into three gun love the sport but are turned off by the money they have to spend. Having a division that caters to those who want to keep the costs lower is a good thing and has proven popular in our little experiment up here. Please don't compare this idea to IDPA its nothing like that at all. Not bashing IDPA but the intent of this division is far from the intent of IDPA.

I shot my entire first year using basic gear and I didn't feel inferior or needing the hottest thing out at the time. I worked into the sport and figured out what I needed and what would allow me to progress. I'm two years into the game and just yesterday got my first ten round tube for my shotty. A gear race? No I don't think it is. Does the guy with a Surefire mag make him shoot faster than me? Does the 12 rnd tubes make the 100's of guys shooting them faster than me? No I don't believe so. It's a race against the clock. Not against the high capacity gear.

That is your story everyone one is different. I have been playing this game for 10 years or so if you count the first matches I started for LEO's only and been shooting three gun as we know it now for about 7 years. (stopped hosting cop only matches because participation levels sucked) I like to gear race and I have beaten shooters close in skill to myself or even better to me because I had better gear and I have been accused of buying wins. Production was designed to get rid of those arguments. I suppose its going to be a hard sell in an area where limited is doing well. In those instances I say leave it alone. But if limited is dying in your area give this a try and see if it helps. Also yes if the guy with a surefire mag does not have to reload he can complete the course a bit faster than you all other things being equal. Shooting skill matters the most but gear does matter. If it didn't we would all be using SKS carbines, Benelli Nova Shotgun and stock Glock 17s in all divisons.

Pat

Edited July 30, 2013 by Alaskapopo

[ClutchUSMC]

Do you guys really think it matters? You can either shoot or you cant. All you are going to accomplish is to allow nordic to make fewer lengths of tube and allow less creativity and innovation into the equipment we use.

More people have a 10/22 than 30 round mags, and its cheaper too, why don't we just restrict all rifles to factory ruger 10/22s?

I have never seen a top competitor complain about an equipment race. I have seen many top competitors take INFERIOR equipment and junk guys who thought they could buy their way to the top. Jeff Cramblit loading off armbands, Pat Kelley shooting a 1911 without sights, etc.

All you will accomplish is the guys that work hard to be the best will still be the best.

It mattered up here. New shooters have a perception that gear matters more than it does. This is just catering to them a bit to grow the sport. Also some good shooters up here prefer this division because of financial reasons or they simply want to use their duty gear if their LEO.

Pat

Whats keeping them from using their duty gear? TO isn't a Swaro, 2011, Benelli only class?

And while I don't discount the need to get new shooters involved why not just make a new class, which is exactly what you did, and leave the rest of the existing classes alone. New shooters grow the sport but its the hardcore road warriors that are doing it every weekend that keep it going. Without guys making the rounds, becoming md's, ro's etc. You wouldn't have a match for the new guys to shoot.

Making the rules more restrictive is just going to push some of those guys out of the sport and make a bunch of others buy new gear.

[Alaskapopo]

Do you guys really think it matters? You can either shoot or you cant. All you are going to accomplish is to allow nordic to make fewer lengths of tube and allow less creativity and innovation into the equipment we use.

More people have a 10/22 than 30 round mags, and its cheaper too, why don't we just restrict all rifles to factory ruger 10/22s?

I have never seen a top competitor complain about an equipment race. I have seen many top competitors take INFERIOR equipment and junk guys who thought they could buy their way to the top. Jeff Cramblit loading off armbands, Pat Kelley shooting a 1911 without sights, etc.

All you will accomplish is the guys that work hard to be the best will still be the best.

It mattered up here. New shooters have a perception that gear matters more than it does. This is just catering to them a bit to grow the sport. Also some good shooters up here prefer this division because of financial reasons or they simply want to use their duty gear if their LEO.

Pat

Whats keeping them from using their duty gear? TO isn't a Swaro, 2011, Benelli only class?

And while I don't discount the need to get new shooters involved why not just make a new class, which is exactly what you did, and leave the rest of the existing classes alone. New shooters grow the sport but its the hardcore road warriors that are doing it every weekend that keep it going. Without guys making the rounds, becoming md's, ro's etc. You wouldn't have a match for the new guys to shoot.

Making the rules more restrictive is just going to push some of those guys out of the sport and make a bunch of others buy new gear.

Well what is stopping them is the fact most are using 14 inch Vang 870's stock Glock's or 1911's and red dots on their AR's. No one wants to go into a match at a disadvantage especially type A personality cops. Again this class has worked here and we will keep using it and I bet it would work elsewhere as well. It has not pushed shooters out of the sport is has brought new ones in up here. Also no one up here misses limited having too many classes dilutes the sport too much in my opinion.

Pat

Edited July 30, 2013 by Alaskapopo

[ClutchUSMC]

Do you guys really think it matters? You can either shoot or you cant. All you are going to accomplish is to allow nordic to make fewer lengths of tube and allow less creativity and innovation into the equipment we use.

More people have a 10/22 than 30 round mags, and its cheaper too, why don't we just restrict all rifles to factory ruger 10/22s?

I have never seen a top competitor complain about an equipment race. I have seen many top competitors take INFERIOR equipment and junk guys who thought they could buy their way to the top. Jeff Cramblit loading off armbands, Pat Kelley shooting a 1911 without sights, etc.

All you will accomplish is the guys that work hard to be the best will still be the best.

It mattered up here. New shooters have a perception that gear matters more than it does. This is just catering to them a bit to grow the sport. Also some good shooters up here prefer this division because of financial reasons or they simply want to use their duty gear if their LEO.

Pat

Whats keeping them from using their duty gear? TO isn't a Swaro, 2011, Benelli only class?

And while I don't discount the need to get new shooters involved why not just make a new class, which is exactly what you did, and leave the rest of the existing classes alone. New shooters grow the sport but its the hardcore road warriors that are doing it every weekend that keep it going. Without guys making the rounds, becoming md's, ro's etc. You wouldn't have a match for the new guys to shoot.

Making the rules more restrictive is just going to push some of those guys out of the sport and make a bunch of others buy new gear.

Well what is stopping them is the fact most are using 14 inch Vang 870's stock Glock's or 1911's and red dots on their AR's. No one wants to go into a match at a disadvantage especially type A personality cops. Again this class has worked here and we will keep using it and I bet it would work elsewhere as well. It has not pushed shooters out of the sport is has brought new ones in up here. Also no one up here misses limited having too many classes dilutes the sport too much in my opinion.

Pat

Some of us miss a true Irons class. In fact quite a few of us do.

I haven't worked with a gun in quite awhile, they are just toys to me now, but when they were I damn sure would have rather shoot the ones I depended on to save my life and the lives of the man to the left and right. As a cop I'd imagine you're always going to be at a disadvantage in a gunfight. You're not going to pick the time, place, rules, or equipment. If you're willing to overcome that and hit the street everyday then I'd think you'd be able to shoot a less than ideal gun in TO. Honestly we don't have enough cops that shoot where I am that you would even notice if they showed up. I think creating a class for them is a little silly. However, I used to have one who shot my club matches with his duty gear and did fairly well.

FWIW I shot a 1911 with 8 round mags, a Nova with no extension (5 round capacity), and my normal 3gun rifle in a club match and stil won TO and HOA. Again, in my mind it's not the gear it's the shooter. And I'm not that good.

[ClutchUSMC]

Nordic tubes are the same price regardless of length. A pmag extension, C-products 44 round mag, or 40 round p-mag can all be had for less than $20. So, whats the real issue here? You guys don't think you're competitive without 20 bucks to put 10-15 more rounds in you're rifle? And, you won't spend that $20 to be competitive?

[Alaskapopo]

Do you guys really think it matters? You can either shoot or you cant. All you are going to accomplish is to allow nordic to make fewer lengths of tube and allow less creativity and innovation into the equipment we use.

More people have a 10/22 than 30 round mags, and its cheaper too, why don't we just restrict all rifles to factory ruger 10/22s?

I have never seen a top competitor complain about an equipment race. I have seen many top competitors take INFERIOR equipment and junk guys who thought they could buy their way to the top. Jeff Cramblit loading off armbands, Pat Kelley shooting a 1911 without sights, etc.

All you will accomplish is the guys that work hard to be the best will still be the best.

It mattered up here. New shooters have a perception that gear matters more than it does. This is just catering to them a bit to grow the sport. Also some good shooters up here prefer this division because of financial reasons or they simply want to use their duty gear if their LEO.

Pat

Whats keeping them from using their duty gear? TO isn't a Swaro, 2011, Benelli only class?

And while I don't discount the need to get new shooters involved why not just make a new class, which is exactly what you did, and leave the rest of the existing classes alone. New shooters grow the sport but its the hardcore road warriors that are doing it every weekend that keep it going. Without guys making the rounds, becoming md's, ro's etc. You wouldn't have a match for the new guys to shoot.

Making the rules more restrictive is just going to push some of those guys out of the sport and make a bunch of others buy new gear.

Well what is stopping them is the fact most are using 14 inch Vang 870's stock Glock's or 1911's and red dots on their AR's. No one wants to go into a match at a disadvantage especially type A personality cops. Again this class has worked here and we will keep using it and I bet it would work elsewhere as well. It has not pushed shooters out of the sport is has brought new ones in up here. Also no one up here misses limited having too many classes dilutes the sport too much in my opinion.

Pat

Some of us miss a true Irons class. In fact quite a few of us do.

I haven't worked with a gun in quite awhile, they are just toys to me now, but when they were I damn sure would have rather shoot the ones I depended on to save my life and the lives of the man to the left and right. As a cop I'd imagine you're always going to be at a disadvantage in a gunfight. You're not going to pick the time, place, rules, or equipment. If you're willing to overcome that and hit the street everyday then I'd think you'd be able to shoot a less than ideal gun in TO. Honestly we don't have enough cops that shoot where I am that you would even notice if they showed up. I think creating a class for them is a little silly. However, I used to have one who shot my club matches with his duty gear and did fairly well.

FWIW I shot a 1911 with 8 round mags, a Nova with no extension (5 round capacity), and my normal 3gun rifle in a club match and stil won TO and HOA. Again, in my mind it's not the gear it's the shooter. And I'm not that good.

Its not a class just for cops. In fact most of the shooters we get in this class are just new shooters in general. Also a lot of military folks with person guns set up to be similar to their work guns. Personally I shoot my duty gear in training and in LEO only matches and I use my competition gear in competition. I like to win as much as the next guy and don't care for self imposed handicaps. Anyway to each there own is limited is working in your area then keep on trucking. It was not up here and this new class we created has been far more popular. One of the things I love about outlaw three gun is you can change what you want. Limited doesn't work for us so we changed it.

Pat

Edited July 30, 2013 by Alaskapopo

[JesseCJC]

As someone fairly new to 3 gun, I really don't care what my competition has. Is it fair a stock glock holds 15/17 and I am up against a race 2011 with 22-26 in the same class? Is it fair my inexpensive 1-4x is in the same class as a 2k 1-6x or higher? I really don't care and MOST new shooters don't. I realize that some of you guys are out to keep sponsors happy and get to go all over the country to shoot matches and have a LOT of time to practice. Most new shooters don't and we are there not to worry about who has what gear, we are there to have fun and get some sun. Unless 3gun starts going into more specific classes, I don't see the issue with magazine size.

[Alaskapopo]

As someone fairly new to 3 gun, I really don't care what my competition has. Is it fair a stock glock holds 15/17 and I am up against a race 2011 with 22-26 in the same class? Is it fair my inexpensive 1-4x is in the same class as a 2k 1-6x or higher? I really don't care and MOST new shooters don't. I realize that some of you guys are out to keep sponsors happy and get to go all over the country to shoot matches and have a LOT of time to practice. Most new shooters don't and we are there not to worry about who has what gear, we are there to have fun and get some sun. Unless 3gun starts going into more specific classes, I don't see the issue with magazine size.

Your different that most new shooters I deal with. They are always asking me what to get and always seem concerned with not being competitive because of gear. I always tell them to run what they have until they figure out if this game is for them and they have had an opportunity to see other shooters and what they run. You can even see this in the post here on Enos from new shooters asking about gear.

Pat

[JesseCJC]

Don't get me wrong, I do like to see what people are using but in no way shape or form do I think running X brand will make me be on an equal playing field with those who are more seasoned and more importantly at an elevated skill set. That's just a complete fallacy. The fact of the matter is that it takes me more time to miss targets and re-engage than it does to swap a mag and that goes for ANY weapon used in the sport.

[sdhunterman]

I have to say that if you can shoot your guns and not miss, the magazine capacity is a minute point. Sure reloading less times equates to less time on the clock but it isn't enough to quantify a new rule set.

The pros are pros because they can shoot well not because of what length magazines they run. If you are a new shooter and expect handicapping a better shooter by limiting his magazine length will somehow equal the playing field, you are mistaken.

[Nuke8401]

I've shot 4 major matches in the past 2 years and several local matches coming from about 8 years of pistol shooting.

I am a competitive shooter not just there for the fun of it. I run 10+1, 140mm, and a 48rd AR mag if needed, $400 optic.

I don't think equipment or lack of the latest and greatest gear keeps a new shooter from competing but the fear of poor performance does (especially type As). Many use the excuse that they don't have x,y,z equipment when they really just don't have the desire to compete and not perform well (back up their mouth).

I think 3 gunners coming from another competitive shooting background won't let the poor performance aspect stop them and realize the difference in score is influenced much more by practice than going from a $2,000 3-gun gear setup to a $6,000 gear setup.

I would have no problem with TO being 15/16/17rd pistol, 8+1 and 30rd. It would have the potential to do two things: 1. Remove the excuses for new shooters (don’t think it would really matter, their decision to compete is not dependent on their gear), 2. Allow new shooters to do a more direct comparison of their performance to the better shooters in the same class.

Like I said I shoot 10+1 when allowed and considered 12+1 but would be just as happy with 8+1 if that were the rule.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Most new shooters have an M4 type rifle cause that's what the military has or what they see on the video games. Maybe we should make Tac Ops 16" barrel max and quad rail mandatory too?

[mpeltier]

Most new shooters have an M4 type rifle cause that's what the military has or what they see on the video games. Maybe we should make Tac Ops 16" barrel max and quad rail mandatory too?

?

[EaZeNuTZ33]

Most new shooters have an M4 type rifle cause that's what the military has or what they see on the video games. Maybe we should make Tac Ops 16" barrel max and quad rail mandatory too?

Don't forget.....it MUST have every Magpul part made, and anything currently touted as the new tactical hotness!

All magazines must come from a chest rig, and you must have armor IN the chest rig when shooting! No cheating and running around all lightweight and such!

[EkuJustice]

What does the higher capacity mags/tubes actually cost? A glock extension for their glock runs about 35 bucks and really you could get by with 1 extension anyway. Shotgun tube? Nordic sells the tube for the same cost regardless of length and if they run their hunting gun, there is no reason to not have a long tube with the long barrel. Rifle mag? Pmag 40 rounders run like 20 bucks and its not like they are that uncommon among non competition shooters, just scroll through arfcom. So I have yet to see the great investment required to shoot 3 gun with higher capacity equipment.

[Alaskapopo]

What does the higher capacity mags/tubes actually cost? A glock extension for their glock runs about 35 bucks and really you could get by with 1 extension anyway. Shotgun tube? Nordic sells the tube for the same cost regardless of length and if they run their hunting gun, there is no reason to not have a long tube with the long barrel. Rifle mag? Pmag 40 rounders run like 20 bucks and its not like they are that uncommon among non competition shooters, just scroll through arfcom. So I have yet to see the great investment required to shoot 3 gun with higher capacity equipment.

The biggest cost is the shotgun. Having to buy a Semi auto shotgun for some folks is expensive but most have a pump that can work. But hey you all can keep doing what you want and we will keep doing what works for us.

Pat