Match staff not always so professional?

[jdknotts1]

Over the past couple years, I've noticed some times with match staff at some of the 3-gun matches around the country. Rude and unprofessional match staff.....

Is this a trend? Do you see it? Have any experience with it? Sometimes administrative issues such as running behind, bad weather, target issues, etc.. are unavoidable at big matches. But when these things happen, it is not the shooters' fault. It seems like when the stages get backed up, targets go down and need maint. etc, the RO's can get very nasty and rude trying to hurry shooters through the stages.

Like many people, I invest a decent amount of time and money to go to these matches. Not to mention the time off work. I don't like being yelled or screamed at and hurried through a walk-through, or load out. Has it always been like this? I like many people will most likely continue to deal with such things because other than not shoot at all (which will never happen), there really isn't anything that can be done.

Anyone who knows me, probably knows I am not one to hold back if I have something to say. So periodically, I let the RO's know I don't pay money to be yelled at or rushed through a stage. This usually does not go well. Then it becomes my fault things aren't going well and benefit of the doubt goes the way of the Dodo bird....

Is there any recourse? Any remedy?

Dislcaimer: This is not the case with EVERY match. I've been to many matches that a very well ran, very professional, and planned very well. Also, I am not without my faults of periodically getting an attitude when things don't go well...

Edited June 17, 2013 by jdknotts1

[Mike P]

I don't know you so please don't take this personally.

To paraphrase something I read awhile back, it went something like if you run into someone with a bad attitude ocasionally, then you were just unfortunate enough to have run into someone with a bad attitude, but if you are continually running into people with bad attitudes then its probably you.

While I have seen the occasional RO let stress get the best of them, it is the exception rather than the rule. I can't recall having ever seen a RO yell or scream at a competitor. Most of the time on some of the longer more complex stages adherence to the walk through time limits and requiring shooters to be ready when they are up is neccessary, and unfortunately it is usually also neccessary to continually remind them.

Matches not running on time is more often stage design or MD related than due to ROs.

YMMV.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I've never seen RO's get nasty - quite the opposite.

I can't believe they keep their cool and are so helpful for 8 hours a day

in cold, hot or rainy weather.

[Romans 13 4]

Never experienced it myself. Quite the opposite in fact.

[jdknotts1]

I guess I should've been a little more articulate in the begining of the post. This isn't every match, every RO, and every stage. Rather it seems to be happening more often than I would've expected. And I have aplogized to RO's for my behavoir a few times. When the issue is mine, I am not too proud to admit it.

And if you have NEVER seen an RO get nasty, I would like to shoot the matches you go to. But then again, YMMV....

Edited June 17, 2013 by jdknotts1

[MarkCO]

I tend to agree with 2, 3, and 4. For the most part, 3Gun ROs are the best. When I go to a pistol match, I tend to watch the RO on my next stage for a bit just to make sure and avoid "those issues". When I see Bryan, Pete, Scott or any other number of known, consistent, fair ROs, I tend to relax, focus on my stage run and worry less about extraneous issues. I know they are not going to start me with a fellow competitor downrange, or with a target not reset or rush me beyond what is reasonable, so I don't have to do any of their work for them.

Some MDs OTOH, while they have great, dedicated staff, are not so kind, have lost all semblance of "customer service", cheap out on targets and generally put their staff in a less than an enviable position. I am not sure that I have seen one instance of a problem stage, target presentation or other bad issue at a 3Gun match that did not fall on the MD (or RM) rather than the RO.

[Hi-Power Jack]

This isn't every match, every RO, and every stage. Rather it seems to be happening more often

And if you have NEVER seen an RO get nasty, I would like to shoot the matches you go to.

I've been shooting matches for 20 years, at 15 different ranges in seven states, and

I have not observed rudeness to be "happening more often".

Always very helpful ...

[Lead-Head]

The thing is that being an RO can kinda suck from time to time. You get to shoot the match for free, but generally you are pushed through it so fast, you don't expect to give your best showing.

There are so many big matched now that there are a lot of new ROs here and there. Maybe they have some experience, maybe not. maybe their mothers hugged them when they were little, maybe not. When you need 40 ROs to work a major, for free, over what amounts to be 5 days on the range...you might get some turds. But, considering those other factors, it is amazing the level of professionalism and expertise most matches get from their ROs. Many run matches themselves back in their parts of the country. 3-gun has BY FAR the best volunteers you will find anywhere.

Other volunteer organizations I have dealt with, youth sports, school events, church functions, etc.....if we had that ratio of a-holes In 3 gun, I would just stay home. BTW, I RO a lot and am only an a-hole from 0700-about 0915 in the morning.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Lead-Head

[jdknotts1]

I edited the post a tad. Maybe I should've thought a few minutes before I speak (type). A problem of mine since I was young.....

For the most part, I will agree. RO's, MD's, and most all match staff are very professional and consistent throughout the matches. But here and there, there can be problems. Unfortunately it always seems to be the bad ones that stick out in your head. I will also admit, I can sometimes be the problem because I don't respond well to yelling, inconsistent orders, and know-all be-all attitudes.

But one instance sticks out in my head. Last year, my squad was on a break before the next stage started. We had a half hour or so and was walking around the stage. No one was shooting the stage at the time and it was empty. A very well respected shooter was downrange and tapped the steel to see how heavy it was. The RO yelled, "don't touch the fu&*ing steel!" I looked at the RO and said 'If you don't want to be here, you don't have to. And if being somewhere else would make you happier, please go there.'

Edited June 17, 2013 by jdknotts1

[Sarge]

A very well respected shooter was downrange and tapped the steel to see how heavy it was. The RO yelled, "don't touch the fu&*ing steel!"

to be honest he should have asked the RO's permission to touch the fu&*ing steel

[Flatland Shooter]

The thing is that being an RO can kinda suck from time to time. You get to shoot the match for free, but generally you are pushed through it so fast, you don't expect to give your best showing.

A lot of folks don't realize that's the case. I've run into a few folks that actually think I R.O. for the money.

As for rude or uncaring RO's, its very, very rare out here. And when we do have an RO that is having a bad day, there is always something going on that the shooters are unaware of. When we discover that an RO is out of sorts, we fix it. Usually its a case where the RO is getting overwhelmed with the job. Give him/her a little time off and then some support (an extra set of hands?) and all is well later on.

Bill

[Alaskapopo]

I try to be polite and professional always but sometimes the stress of having hundreds of questions (some stupid questions too) come your way while your trying to fix issues with props etc, can get to you and I have found myself a little short with people at times. RO's are human too give them a little slack.

pat

[Jaxshooter]

I have not encountered any problems with ROs except on rare occassions. Most of it has to due with lack of experience and knowledge. To defend the ROs part of this is not their fault. For example our area has a bunch of new CROs that took a one day class and think they know everything because they are now CROs. 3 or 4 that I have personally been run by still don't use the proper range commands.

[Lead-Head]

There are ROs who are not invited back to do it again from time to time. They are sometimes voted off the island by the match staff and just not asked to work the next year.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

I have been guilty of being unprofessional when being an RO....not mean or rude I hope, but I do joke around a good amount and I've gotten crude and unprofessional at times if there are no kids present. I've scaled that back as much as possible lately.

As for rude or mean RO's....I've seen them in 3-gun events both big and small, though they weren't THAT bad (never shot USPSA, IDPA, or shotgun only matches before, and only 1 year of 3-gun so far!). There are a multitude of things that can contribute to that IMO. You have people who take a little responsibility too far and start to take too much ownership of "their stage," then they feel disrespected if you do something wrong on THEIR stage. You have people, that in general, do not have social skills...yet desire to contribute to a sport they like. <---these people aren't always trying to be a pain, they're just naturally not good with people. You also have the people who get tired of being whined to and bitched at when they are essentially working for free, they start off great and get soured by the same shooters that the rest of the RO's get soured by.......those who don't help reset, don't listen to the stage briefing then want to hear everything again WHILE someone else is shooting, or doesn't listen to the stage briefing then wants to argue that steel they looked past is somehow now a no shoot target that everyone has been shooting.....the list is endless. 99.99% of the shooters I have met are great, but the .01% I've met when RO'ing and shooting....I could see how they could rub some people wrong after awhile. When I see these people, I let their squad members get them in line for me........I just won't start a stage briefing unless ALL of the squad is up close and paying attention, and won't break for a walk thru until everyone confirms they understand the stage briefing. <---Not mean there, but it's the weekend, and I don't have to be anywhere until Monday morning. :-)

[Mberry]

I only have a year in this game, so take my observations as those of a beginner, but I have had similar thoughts and finally came to a somewhat constructive observation.

My hackles raise quickly, as I believe yours do, when someone is rude or challenging to me. This is a positive attribute in my line of work, and possibly life saving in yours. People who rely on their instincts to sense aggression may be more sensitive to RO's who are a bit barky or bearish. This may be especially true if you have gone through schools where people in positions of power over you act that way. Perhaps you have worked your way up through that food chain and you are now well above people talking to you in a tone lacking respect. I say this because I get rubbed by RO's and mention it to squad mates who haven't noticed the guy being rude at all. Those squad mates are generally in non-confrontational lines of work.

At a recent major match, there was one stage where I thought the RO was a raging prick. No one else seemed to notice, but he rubbed me the wrong way from the minute we pulled up to his stage and he pointed out where he wanted us to park. He didn't do anything wrong, it was just the way he did it. No smile, no wave, he just pointed at me and then pointed where he wanted me to park with authority. It seems stupid even as I type it, but it was a control thing. He was taking control from the very beginning. I'm normally in a position where I am in control, so that rubbed me wrong.

I ended up shooting with that same RO as a squad mate a couple of weeks ago and we got along great. Come to find out, he was a retired cop. Imagine that. Turns out he is a prick, but one I can get along with just fine.

My point, if there is one, is that I agree with you and I absolutely hate being yelled at while I am enjoying myself at a match. It consumes my thoughts and doesn't help my shooting in the least. In the end, it only hurts me. I've tried to ignore it and I seem to run in to the situation less now than I did in my first few matches. I even went so far as to be extra nice to an RO that I thought was being a prick at a major match and he softened up.

I know you have a lot more match experience than I do, but if I can offer a tiny bit of advice it would be to try extra hard to change the situation, or at least your perception of the situation, so that your scores don't suffer from it. Not that you'll incur extra penalties, but if your sub-conscious is consumed with thoughts of the RO, it won't perform well at the tasks you need it to. I use a trick from a really bad movie I saw once, I force a smile and say, "I never did mind so much about the little things". Macho? Not in the least, but it reminds me that I'm there to have fun and I don't have to be the alpha all the time.

Edited June 17, 2013 by winmagfrog

[Jadeslade]

At most matches, RO's are tremendously good and experienced, however, there is occasionally one that is edgy or something, or a group that has no lead RO. I have experienced being yelled at by 4 RO's at once, so you know I'm like, "what" , and I ask what-this is while shooting pistol on an all 3 Guns stage-it's like raining, thunder and lightning,they rushing-I pull my ears up and say what again-"foot foot foot foot" -like any of them besides the guy behind the timer can see my foot. And it was annoying. I'm not going back to that match. That's about all you can do. Outlaw Match so there are no set commands. Most guys use standard IPSC but I still hear do you understand, etc.-you learn to block it out. If it's hot and humid, and you're feeling blown out, the RO's are also. I thank everybody, even when they act like psychotic zombies, blow calls, etc., because that the best way to maintain your composure and keep yourself in the best frame of mind for the next stage. Keep yourself positive.

[El Guapo]

To the OP, suck it up buttercup. The RO's have a tough job and have to maintain a schedule. I'm sure they would say sorry if they knew they hurt your feelings.

[DougCarden]

I have been a match director of some large matches, and yes, I have had one or two RO's that were asked not to come back and they quite frankly made my life difficult during the match.

It happens. You deal with it, you go on.

I have had so many other wonderful RO's that worked for me, I have worked with them, and I have enjoyed many more wonderful RO's as a shooter.

Most of the time it is a personality thing, but it boils down to customer service. You are there to serve the shooter and the match itself.

Most of us are Alpha Males and can rub each other wrong some times. You just have to realize it is a game, we are there to have fun and be safe. You can do both, and having a cold brew with them later never hurts either.....

Communication is a two way street. Unless you have been an RO and involved in the running of the matches you may not understand what is going on.

Oh Yeah.....Stuff happens too....

DougC

Edited June 18, 2013 by DougCarden

[Jadeslade]

To the OP, suck it up buttercup. The RO's have a tough job and have to maintain a schedule. I'm sure they would say sorry if they knew they hurt your feelings.

This is no place for personal attacks. I wouldn't exactly call JD a buttercup. I find his original question valid. RO's volunteer, but we all volunteer, so I think he's just asking, you know?

[ClutchUSMC]

I see it from time to time. About a year ago I got screamed at by an RO at a club match and told I didn't know what low ready meant. Turns out it was his 1st 3 gun match and I haven't seem him at a match since. Those people don't usually make it long.

On the other hand I can be a prick myself. And I have gotten cross with several people when I have been working a match. Generally its the lack of sleep, heat, hangover, etc. Day 2 for shooters is often times day 4 or 5 for me and I'm a fat guy that works at a desk in A/C all day.

I usually give people the benefit of the doubt the first time. If its a constant problem then that is an issue that I would address with the MD.

[Brian Payne]

I try to get in the good graces of all RO's on the stages by being the first to run down range to reset. It is amazing how appreciative a group of RO's can be when a squad works hard at reset. I also always make it a point at the stage brief when the RO's are introduced, to thank them for their work, then shake their hand and tell them thanks again when the stage is over. I don't do this to "suck up", it is done because I have been in their position and I remember the little things that I really appreciated about some of the shooters.

Being an RO, CRO, RM or MD is a very tough job, we as competitors sometimes forget that. Maybe having an award for "best RO squad" and "fastest reset squad" would help with this situation. It would help keep RO and competitor alike, focused on the true intent of the sport, that is being on a range together having fun while shooting guns in a safe manner.

[1chota]

I try to get in the good graces of all RO's on the stages by being the first to run down range to reset. It is amazing how appreciative a group of RO's can be when a squad works hard at reset. I also always make it a point at the stage brief when the RO's are introduced, to thank them for their work, then shake their hand and tell them thanks again when the stage is over. I don't do this to "suck up", it is done because I have been in their position and I remember the little things that I really appreciated about some of the shooters.

Being an RO, CRO, RM or MD is a very tough job, we as competitors sometimes forget that. Maybe having an award for "best RO squad" and "fastest reset squad" would help with this situation. It would help keep RO and competitor alike, focused on the true intent of the sport, that is being on a range together having fun while shooting guns in a safe manner.

it has to be the Sierra Squad!

[co-exprs]

Coming from an RO perspective, I can say that everyone working a match gets worn down and frazzled from time to time. I've had the good fortune to work with some really really good RO's and tried to soak up as much from them as possible. I've learned though experience that organization and communication is paramount to a smooth running stage. I got overly assertive with a squad once. They were being jerks, but in all fairness I could have handled it better too. Upon reflection, I realized that had the squad been greated by an RO with some directions on where to park, gear and score sheets, the confrontation could have been avoided all together. Good discussion and planning on the part of the RO's after the RO shoot and before the match starts can yeild a great deal of insight as to what to expect from competitors when they show up, prepare, preload and shoot the stage. Good RO's will know and point out 180 traps, trip hazards and any other potential safety hazards. They will have a good stage briefing prepared and present that stage briefing consistently to each group. They will have identified potential questions and grey areas in the execution of the rules before the match starts so they have answers for questions asked during the walk through. Some of the more confrontational scenarios should also be identified so that when a violation occures on the part of a competitor, a response is ready. On open terrain stages moving 180s should be very well communicated and landmarks identified. What is considered a "good faith effort" to engage and hit a target should be discussed and communicated with the group. RO's should plan on taking every opportunity to ispect the condition of their stage. If targets are to receive maintenance such as paint or replacing backers, it should be conducted during scheduled down time, so that the squads can move through efficiently and stay on schedule. At HeMan Nats coming up, there will be rifle targets which go down during a squad. The RO's should have a game plan and the parts and tools necessary to repair or replace targets immediately to get things up and running again ASAP. It's been my experience that the more organized the RO's are on a stage the more organized the competitors are too and confrontations are less likely to happen. With 350 type A personalities, sponsorships, divisional points and some really nice prizes on the table, there will always be an incident or two to deal with, but Scott Hawkins taught me that most of that can be avoided up front and that the few loose end confrontations can be handled respectfully, but swiftly and decisively and to the benefit of both the competitor and the rest of the squad.

[MarkCO]

While I agree Mike, for most matches, most of what you said is not applicable to the ROs, but to the MD/RM. Giving a consistent fair chance for every competitor on every stage requires a person, at some level, who knows and applies the rules and keeps everything between the ditches... excepting our favorite J-Ho of course.