Draft rule book is posted

[ktm300]

I was at a local IDPA sanctioned match this weekend. I took the time to query a lot of people about what they thought about the new rule book. I was amazed at the variety of answers I got. From "they are to making it too much like USPSA" to "I don't see much that is different" and on and on.

I did ask this question to everyone I spoke to: "Why do you think IDPA has only 1 high power factor semi-auto division and that that division is restricted to .45ACP". Wow did I get an ear full from some folks and an "I don't have any idea look from others". The ear full from the "I like it that way group" was mostly how .45ACP is the only valid self defense cartridge. This included references to the .40 Slow and Weak. The ear full from the "I don't think it makes sense" group was all over the board. Most had just given up and gone to downloading the power in their .40 S&W guns and shooting them. When asked if that is the way they carried their guns they said no. I heard a lot of "you will just have to ask HQ" answers.

A good percentage of the people in ESP were shooting .40 and when asked they said they had the power factor down around 140.

It was a fun match, even in the rain half the day. The people were nice and I had fun shooting my 175 PF .40 loads in ESP. I guess I will just give up on IDPA having divisions that make sense and shoot my 9mm 1911 in ESP once I get it legal. After all it's just a game where we get to shoot guns. How bad can it be.

[aviatrix]

Getting close to getting this thread closed!

It should have been shut down a while ago..especially when the negative IDPA/USPSA comparisons became an factor in the discussion.

Shoot IDPA and USPSA and I haven't seen anything to warrant shutting this thread. If all there ever is, is positive comparsions of this or anything else, not much communication is actually occuring,

[Chuck D]

I was at a local IDPA sanctioned match this weekend. I took the time to query a lot of people about what they thought about the new rule book. I was amazed at the variety of answers I got. From "they are to making it too much like USPSA" to "I don't see much that is different" and on and on.

I did ask this question to everyone I spoke to: "Why do you think IDPA has only 1 high power factor semi-auto division and that that division is restricted to .45ACP". Wow did I get an ear full from some folks and an "I don't have any idea look from others". The ear full from the "I like it that way group" was mostly how .45ACP is the only valid self defense cartridge. This included references to the .40 Slow and Weak. The ear full from the "I don't think it makes sense" group was all over the board. Most had just given up and gone to downloading the power in their .40 S&W guns and shooting them. When asked if that is the way they carried their guns they said no. I heard a lot of "you will just have to ask HQ" answers.

A good percentage of the people in ESP were shooting .40 and when asked they said they had the power factor down around 140.

It was a fun match, even in the rain half the day. The people were nice and I had fun shooting my 175 PF .40 loads in ESP. I guess I will just give up on IDPA having divisions that make sense and shoot my 9mm 1911 in ESP once I get it legal. After all it's just a game where we get to shoot guns. How bad can it be.

Glad you had a good day,hope you come out and shoot IDPA a bit more in the future. Don't give up on making changes either. You never know until you try.

[tiger49931]

I'm really liking how the new rule book used USPSA language in

"Comment [TT79]:

5” STI limited type guns

with full length steel dust covers (and similar

firearms from other manufacturers) are viewed

as competition only firearms."

Last time I checked, person with the fastest time wins, I've been awarded with a trophy and plaque for the last two sanctioned matches, but wouldn't that make it a competition?

ESP weight limit = 43oz

STI Edge = 37.6oz

The Edge is 2.4 ounces over the Eagle (IDPA legal... with 2.75" dust cover)If you had a 3.25" dust cover which is going to be legal in Oct. the gun would weigh somewhere around 36.3oz.

How is roughly 1.3 ounces going to make such a drastic difference in times?

"USPSA does it this way so we can't!!!"

the only thing i would say to this is the i think its the glock 34 with the slide lightening cut and etc is advertised as a competition gun so why is that legal? "Glock 34 Gen4 competition". thats how they list it on the glock site.

[Chuck D]

I'm really liking how the new rule book used USPSA language in

"Comment [TT79]:

5” STI limited type guns

with full length steel dust covers (and similar

firearms from other manufacturers) are viewed

as competition only firearms."

Last time I checked, person with the fastest time wins, I've been awarded with a trophy and plaque for the last two sanctioned matches, but wouldn't that make it a competition?

ESP weight limit = 43oz

STI Edge = 37.6oz

The Edge is 2.4 ounces over the Eagle (IDPA legal... with 2.75" dust cover)If you had a 3.25" dust cover which is going to be legal in Oct. the gun would weigh somewhere around 36.3oz.

How is roughly 1.3 ounces going to make such a drastic difference in times?

"USPSA does it this way so we can't!!!"

the only thing i would say to this is the i think its the glock 34 with the slide lightening cut and etc is advertised as a competition gun so why is that legal? "Glock 34 Gen4 competition". thats how they list it on the glock site.

... the 34 and the 17 are virtually the same weight and thats due to the cut in the slide. Full length dust covers add weight in areas of the pistol that help reduce muzzle flip. Thats where I believe IDPA is approaching the issue.

[Rob Tompkins]

Whenever you change a long standing set of rules every change will have someone unhappy about it. IMHO some of the attempts to clarify and eliminate ambiguity worked, many more created new or more ambiguity. It is interesting that the last time I looked there were over 1100 comments.

I just hope the Tiger Teams take the comments to heart and fix the ambiguity as well as provide good reasons for why requested changes (like 40 in CDP) were not made.

[Mike21STI]

I'm really liking how the new rule book used USPSA language in

"Comment [TT79]:

5 STI limited type guns

with full length steel dust covers (and similar

firearms from other manufacturers) are viewed

as competition only firearms."

Last time I checked, person with the fastest time wins, I've been awarded with a trophy and plaque for the last two sanctioned matches, but wouldn't that make it a competition?

ESP weight limit = 43oz

STI Edge = 37.6oz

The Edge is 2.4 ounces over the Eagle (IDPA legal... with 2.75" dust cover)If you had a 3.25" dust cover which is going to be legal in Oct. the gun would weigh somewhere around 36.3oz.

How is roughly 1.3 ounces going to make such a drastic difference in times?

"USPSA does it this way so we can't!!!"

the only thing i would say to this is the i think its the glock 34 with the slide lightening cut and etc is advertised as a competition gun so why is that legal? "Glock 34 Gen4 competition". thats how they list it on the glock site.

... the 34 and the 17 are virtually the same weight and thats due to the cut in the slide. Full length dust covers add weight in areas of the pistol that help reduce muzzle flip. Thats where I believe IDPA is approaching the issue.

By that logic a full dust cover slide lightened 2011 should be able to be used since it would be virtually the same weight as a short dustcover gun and still meet the weight limit... Not trying to argue just think the rule is kinda stupid since the gun would meet the weight limit...

I'll still play the IDPA and play by the rules but I'm looking forward to shooting USPSA more at this point.

[Chuck D]

I'm really liking how the new rule book used USPSA language in

"Comment [TT79]:

5 STI limited type guns

with full length steel dust covers (and similar

firearms from other manufacturers) are viewed

as competition only firearms."

Last time I checked, person with the fastest time wins, I've been awarded with a trophy and plaque for the last two sanctioned matches, but wouldn't that make it a competition?

ESP weight limit = 43oz

STI Edge = 37.6oz

The Edge is 2.4 ounces over the Eagle (IDPA legal... with 2.75" dust cover)If you had a 3.25" dust cover which is going to be legal in Oct. the gun would weigh somewhere around 36.3oz.

How is roughly 1.3 ounces going to make such a drastic difference in times?

"USPSA does it this way so we can't!!!"

the only thing i would say to this is the i think its the glock 34 with the slide lightening cut and etc is advertised as a competition gun so why is that legal? "Glock 34 Gen4 competition". thats how they list it on the glock site.

... the 34 and the 17 are virtually the same weight and thats due to the cut in the slide. Full length dust covers add weight in areas of the pistol that help reduce muzzle flip. Thats where I believe IDPA is approaching the issue.

By that logic a full dust cover slide lightened 2011 should be able to be used since it would be virtually the same weight as a short dustcover gun and still meet the weight limit... Not trying to argue just think the rule is kinda stupid since the gun would meet the weight limit...

I'll still play the IDPA and play by the rules but I'm looking forward to shooting USPSA more at this point.

It's not overall weight of the pistol it's where the weight is located on the pistol. A full length dust cover places weight in an advantageous location on the pistol.

The rules are what they are....

[ktm300]

I suggest you suspend any logical thought while trying to figure out IDPA rules.

It's a game and like the man said, "The rules are what they are...."

I tend to say it a different way, "that's the way we have always done it"

[Chuck D]

I suggest you suspend any logical thought while trying to figure out IDPA rules.

It's a game and like the man said, "The rules are what they are...."

I tend to say it a different way, "that's the way we have always done it"

Here we go again with another cheap shot .... "suspending logical thought."

You are absolutely correct....it's game. Until the targets shoot back, that's all it will ever be.

If you want heavy dust covers, to be able to drop mags with ammo in them, run from position of cover to position of cover with an empty firearm, and shoot 40/10mm in major power factor mode then maybe IDPA isn't the game for you. i sincerely hope you come and shoot anyway, the sport is richer for your experiences and your willingness to participate. That's not a statement of appeasement...that is the God's honest truth.

IDPA makes the rules we ALL have to abide by to compete. They asked for your suggestions and I assume you provided them. What the final results will be is anyones guess but in the final analysis...the rules are what they are.

With that said...lets stop making false accusations about "suspending logical thought."

Thank you....

[jmorris]

"It's not overall weight of the pistol it's where the weight is located on the pistol. A full length dust cover places weight in an advantageous location on the pistol. "

FWIW I built a 2011 that has a wider dust cover and longer than stock that adds weight to the frame and is still legal.

[ktm300]

OK it was a cheap shot but it must have hit pretty close to the mark.

I did not say anything about cover, or dropping mags. Those are the things that make IDPA what it is. Just like low round count stages, lots of cool props, nice people, etc.

What makes no sense is the way the divisions are done and in my opinion it takes a suspension of logical thought to try and make sense out of them. It's not an accusation, just an opinion and it's not going to change as far as I can tell.

Edited May 30, 2013 by ktm300

[Chuck D]

OK it was a cheap shot but it must have hit pretty close to the mark.

I did not say anything about cover, or dropping mags. Those are the things that make IDPA what it is. Just like low round count stages, lots of cool props, nice people, etc.

What makes no sense is the way the divisions are done and in my opinion it takes a suspension of logical thought to try and make sense out of them. It's not an accusation, just an opinion and it's not going to change as far as I can tell.

Thanks for FINALLY admitting the "cheap shot"....

I attempt to carry on conversations with respect for the other persons view...I am also atune to the fact that others don't. To each their own.

Changes to the division rules are not likely to change....you are correct in that aspect. They are the way they are for a reason.

[Paul-the new guy]

The swenson safety rule is ridiculous!! As is the dust cover rule.If a division has a max weight you should be able to do whatever you want to up to that weight. Maybe they need a division just for IDPA purists that shoot for the sake of shooting (SSP) and a division for those that want to win (ESP)!

[ktm300]

Changes to the division rules are not likely to change....you are correct in that aspect. They are the way they are for a reason.

And the reason is "That's the way we have always done it"

By the way, that is not a cheap shot at all.

It's a self defense sport where there is no place to be competitive with a normal carry gun. At the match I was at last month at least 95% if not more of the guns were full size heavy guns. 42 or 43 oz is heavy, full size is hard to hide except in the winter. If 5% were ever carried I would be amazed.

It's a self defense sport that makes shooters that own a .40 S&W choose to shoot loads well below the standard power for the load or shoot at a disadvantage. There is no division to shoot one of the most popular high power handgun loads at full power. Guess we should all just admit that anything but .45 acp is just not a full power self defense load as that seems to be what IDPA is telling us.

It is a self defense sport that uses arbitrary limitations to keep out "competition guns" but most people at the match were shooting competition guns of one sort or another.

Of course I will hear the same BS about how you can shoot anything you want but most people want to show up and at least be in the game. It is a game isn't it?

I can go on an on about the arbitrary illogical rules that define the divisions but I will stop.

as to "I attempt to carry on conversations with respect for the other persons view...I am also atune to the fact that others don't. To each their own."

Show me a post where I have accused you of anything at all. You have continuously accused me of "making false accusations". Not polite at all.

Everything I have said was based on my opinion and none of it was false.

[Chuck D]

Changes to the division rules are not likely to change....you are correct in that aspect. They are the way they are for a reason.

And the reason is "That's the way we have always done it"

By the way, that is not a cheap shot at all.

It's a self defense sport where there is no place to be competitive with a normal carry gun. At the match I was at last month at least 95% if not more of the guns were full size heavy guns. 42 or 43 oz is heavy, full size is hard to hide except in the winter. If 5% were ever carried I would be amazed.

It's a self defense sport that makes shooters that own a .40 S&W choose to shoot loads well below the standard power for the load or shoot at a disadvantage. There is no division to shoot one of the most popular high power handgun loads at full power. Guess we should all just admit that anything but .45 acp is just not a full power self defense load as that seems to be what IDPA is telling us.

It is a self defense sport that uses arbitrary limitations to keep out "competition guns" but most people at the match were shooting competition guns of one sort or another.

Of course I will hear the same BS about how you can shoot anything you want but most people want to show up and at least be in the game. It is a game isn't it?

I can go on an on about the arbitrary illogical rules that define the divisions but I will stop.

as to "I attempt to carry on conversations with respect for the other persons view...I am also atune to the fact that others don't. To each their own."

Show me a post where I have accused you of anything at all. You have continuously accused me of "making false accusations". Not polite at all.

Everything I have said was based on my opinion and none of it was false.

You haven't come out and accused me of anything. You make blanket accusations that the rules are "illogical" and that "the way we've always done it" is the order of the day. That's what I refer to when I state "cheap shots" because neither are factual BUT they are the grounds you stand on to make your points.

Then you follow up with the infamous" BS" statement when what's" BS "is the manner in which you have come to grips with the fact that your opinions aren't likely to sway the rules committees.

Like I said earlier..IDPA may not be for you if the rules upset your sensabilities to this degree.

[GmanCdp]

a quote that a friend of mine here on the forums will use this often.. "Opinions are like noses and asses........Everybody has one, and some of them smell!"

lol .. I guess the 40 crowd is and will be pissed knowing they can't twist Wilson's arm into doing what they want.. I also can not remember seeing a shooter in the past 5 years that has shot more then 3 or more IDPA matches and shoot full factory 40 rounds. Usually after 3 or 4 matches they will start to reload however,I do know 1 shooter that shoots nothing BUT full factory 40,because he is a true "tactical teddy" when he shoots IDPA.

[Chuck D]

a quote that a friend of mine here on the forums will use this often.. "Opinions are like noses and asses........Everybody has one, and some of them smell!"

lol .. I guess the 40 crowd is and will be pissed knowing they can't twist Wilson's arm into doing what they want.. I also can not remember seeing a shooter in the past 5 years that has shot more then 3 or more IDPA matches and shoot full factory 40 rounds. Usually after 3 or 4 matches they will start to reload however,I do know 1 shooter that shoots nothing BUT full factory 40,because he is a true "tactical teddy" when he shoots IDPA.

[tiger49931]

I understand what people are saying and do agree it is just a game and you must play by the rules. I do like shooting IDPA we do not have a uspsa club within 300 miles of here so idpa is the only game in town. I realize it is a gear race.

[ima45dv8]

Guys,

Here's a formula that is very effective at keeping rules discussions open, or at least wholly intact, without a bunch of "missing" posts:

Address the rules...not each other.

[ktm300]

a quote that a friend of mine here on the forums will use this often.. "Opinions are like noses and asses........Everybody has one, and some of them smell!"

lol .. I guess the 40 crowd is and will be pissed knowing they can't twist Wilson's arm into doing what they want.. I also can not remember seeing a shooter in the past 5 years that has shot more then 3 or more IDPA matches and shoot full factory 40 rounds. Usually after 3 or 4 matches they will start to reload however,I do know 1 shooter that shoots nothing BUT full factory 40,because he is a true "tactical teddy" when he shoots IDPA.

My assumption is when they reload they load down to something a lot closer to 125 PF than than 165 PF. Logic alert Does the D in IDPA mean anything? I guess it only fits if you want to shoot a full power load and it happens to be .45 acp.

If they shoot factory they shoot at a disadvantage which is the shooters choice and probably a good one if they tend to shoot full power loads in their carry gun.

When you have an organization that has thousands of members and a fixed 3 person BOD where one of them is the President you can't seem to get much done if one or two of those three have a bias against a specific cartridge. I keep hearing Chuck say I have no basis for what I say but how is this not "That's the way we have always done it". From your comment I would guess the Wilson's just don't like .40 S&W. That is not logic that is a bias.

Why not have a division that pushes people to shoot the guns they carry? I am not talking about a one off BUG match. Say a gun a lot closer to 23 ounces rather than 43 ounces that will fit in a smaller box than the current IDPA box. I would shoot a small Glock or XD or ..... that I could carry in that division.

How many of you really carry your Glock 35? Here is the description of that gun from the Glock web site:

"The GLOCK 35 Gen4, in .40 caliber, introduces revolutionary design changes to the GLOCK that dominates the Limited Class of competitive Shooting Sports worldwide."

How is this not a "competition" pistol and why is it allowed. They even list it under the heading Competition. What is the logic behind that.

Here is the description of the STI Tactical 5.0 from their web site:

The STI Tactical is well suited for multiple applications, ranging from police and SWAT teams requiring a firearm with a light rail and high capacity, to the individual demanding a high performance pistol with special features for personal protection. The tactical rail milled into the dust cover of the frame accepts all industry standard light mounts.

It is listed under the "Tactical" heading but it can't be used in IDPA because of the full dust cover.

Logic?

Here is what I think and again like the other poster said opinions are like..........

The BOD doesn't like STI but likes Glock, he doesn't like .40 but likes .45 acp. They are the rulers so that is what it's going to be. Again "That's the way we have always done it".

I will shoot our local IDPA match because of the people that put it on. I will have fun. What I will spend my practice time and effort on is USPSA. While not even close to perfect, changes to the rule book are approved by an elected BOD. The organization is run by an elected president. If enough of us don't like the way something is being done we can change it. The more I deal with IDPA the more I understand that "that's the way we have always done it" is the way it's going to be.

[Chuck D]

a quote that a friend of mine here on the forums will use this often.. "Opinions are like noses and asses........Everybody has one, and some of them smell!"

lol .. I guess the 40 crowd is and will be pissed knowing they can't twist Wilson's arm into doing what they want.. I also can not remember seeing a shooter in the past 5 years that has shot more then 3 or more IDPA matches and shoot full factory 40 rounds. Usually after 3 or 4 matches they will start to reload however,I do know 1 shooter that shoots nothing BUT full factory 40,because he is a true "tactical teddy" when he shoots IDPA.

My assumption is when they reload they load down to something a lot closer to 125 PF than than 165 PF. Logic alert Does the D in IDPA mean anything? I guess it only fits if you want to shoot a full power load and it happens to be .45 acp.

If they shoot factory they shoot at a disadvantage which is the shooters choice and probably a good one if they tend to shoot full power loads in their carry gun.

When you have an organization that has thousands of members and a fixed 3 person BOD where one of them is the President you can't seem to get much done if one or two of those three have a bias against a specific cartridge. I keep hearing Chuck say I have no basis for what I say but how is this not "That's the way we have always done it". From your comment I would guess the Wilson's just don't like .40 S&W. That is not logic that is a bias.

Why not have a division that pushes people to shoot the guns they carry? I am not talking about a one off BUG match. Say a gun a lot closer to 23 ounces rather than 43 ounces that will fit in a smaller box than the current IDPA box. I would shoot a small Glock or XD or ..... that I could carry in that division.

How many of you really carry your Glock 35? Here is the description of that gun from the Glock web site:

"The GLOCK 35 Gen4, in .40 caliber, introduces revolutionary design changes to the GLOCK that dominates the Limited Class of competitive Shooting Sports worldwide."

How is this not a "competition" pistol and why is it allowed. They even list it under the heading Competition. What is the logic behind that.

Here is the description of the STI Tactical 5.0 from their web site:

The STI Tactical is well suited for multiple applications, ranging from police and SWAT teams requiring a firearm with a light rail and high capacity, to the individual demanding a high performance pistol with special features for personal protection. The tactical rail milled into the dust cover of the frame accepts all industry standard light mounts.

It is listed under the "Tactical" heading but it can't be used in IDPA because of the full dust cover.

Logic?

Here is what I think and again like the other poster said opinions are like..........

The BOD doesn't like STI but likes Glock, he doesn't like .40 but likes .45 acp. They are the rulers so that is what it's going to be. Again "That's the way we have always done it".

I will shoot our local IDPA match because of the people that put it on. I will have fun. What I will spend my practice time and effort on is USPSA. While not even close to perfect, changes to the rule book are approved by an elected BOD. The organization is run by an elected president. If enough of us don't like the way something is being done we can change it. The more I deal with IDPA the more I understand that "that's the way we have always done it" is the way it's going to be.

I see a significant number of competitors in ESP and CDP in my area using STI/SV platform pistols in 40 and 45 in their respective divisions with for the lack of a better term standard length dust covers. In fact..if I wasn't such a Glock fan I'd build one and by the way I shoot a G17 and a G21.

IDPA isn't USPSA and that's a good thing. Both organizations are successful in their own right and it's clear they approach the administration of their organizations very differently.

The IDPA rulebook isn't perfect...no rulebook ever is but I appreciate the efforts of the Tiger Teams. I honestly believe they did a great job.

IDPA isn't for everyone. People will vote with their membership dollars and that's the way it should work. IDPA right now is a rather busy and successful organization and I expect that the growth will continue regardless of whether 40 is allowed in CDP or not or whether a G34/35 is truly a "competition pistol" or not.

All I really wanted out of the new rulebook was for IDPA to stick to their basic principles and not become IPSC Jr. Other than the range commands which they "nicked" from USPSA that's exactly what IDPA accomplished. I honestly believe some looked for USPSA type rules to be adopted by IDPA especially in the realm of major/minor power factor scoring , eliminating the IDPA reload, being able to move from one position of cover to another position of cover with an empty firearm, and to allow USPSA legal firearms modifications such as full length dust covers. I knew these things wouldn't fly....and as of now they haven't.

Here is where the beauty of the IDPA rulebook comes into play:

With some foresight and careful planning anyone can come up with a pistol, caliber, combination that is legal for both sports and is competitive as well as suitable for concealed carry. I use a 4th Gen G17 in a Comp-Tac holster with Comp-Tac magazine pouches and a Comp-Tac kydex reinforced belt. My gear is legal for IDPA SSP/ESP divisions as well as USPSA Production Division. One pistol, one gear set-up, three divisions, two sanctioning bodies. Not a bad deal and all for under 1200 dollars.

My G21 with the same Comp-Tac gear set-up is legal for IDPA CDP and USPSA L10 divisions. Again all for under 1200 bucks.

If what I've illustrated above isn't proof that IDPA's rules aren't innovative and a departure from the thought process where standardization where possible wasn't achievable then I don't know how to state it any clearer or with any more conviction then I already have.

This is not "business as usual."

[dafdov368]

Guys,

Here's a formula that is very effective at keeping rules discussions open, or at least wholly intact, without a bunch of "missing" posts:

Address the rules...not each other.

We should all read this again. ^^^

First off, everything on this thread is an opinion, and that said there are some good things about USPSA that could be used in IDPA. I'm not suggesting that IDPA should be all gear intensive and run optics/open stuff, but be more willing to accept some more aspects about "Limited" guns from USPSA. And why do I say this... Well.. I still believe that the pistol (by itself) is strictly going to win you and IDPA nationals title, but the person manipulating his/her precision firearm to take that class. (yeah I know... competition.. psh..)

At my club, we run a "Defensive Carry" match and we shoot our carry guns, utilizing IDPA ruling, although not IDPA. At this match I'm shooting a ~235 pf 10mm which is awesome, but it's to improve my skills with this certain firearm which gets carried close to non stop. For the people at my club, it's a great way to actually get out with our carry equipment and practice with it, but it's not something I'd ever use for IDPA beings its a game.

Edited May 31, 2013 by dafdov368

[BillR1]

a quote that a friend of mine here on the forums will use this often.. "Opinions are like noses and asses........Everybody has one, and some of them smell!"lol .. I guess the 40 crowd is and will be pissed knowing they can't twist Wilson's arm into doing what they want.. I also can not remember seeing a shooter in the past 5 years that has shot more then 3 or more IDPA matches and shoot full factory 40 rounds. Usually after 3 or 4 matches they will start to reload however,I do know 1 shooter that shoots nothing BUT full factory 40,because he is a true "tactical teddy" when he shoots IDPA.

My assumption is when they reload they load down to something a lot closer to 125 PF than than 165 PF. Logic alert Does the D in IDPA mean anything? I guess it only fits if you want to shoot a full power load and it happens to be .45 acp.If they shoot factory they shoot at a disadvantage which is the shooters choice and probably a good one if they tend to shoot full power loads in their carry gun.When you have an organization that has thousands of members and a fixed 3 person BOD where one of them is the President you can't seem to get much done if one or two of those three have a bias against a specific cartridge. I keep hearing Chuck say I have no basis for what I say but how is this not "That's the way we have always done it". From your comment I would guess the Wilson's just don't like .40 S&W. That is not logic that is a bias.Why not have a division that pushes people to shoot the guns they carry? I am not talking about a one off BUG match. Say a gun a lot closer to 23 ounces rather than 43 ounces that will fit in a smaller box than the current IDPA box. I would shoot a small Glock or XD or ..... that I could carry in that division.How many of you really carry your Glock 35? Here is the description of that gun from the Glock web site:"The GLOCK 35 Gen4, in .40 caliber, introduces revolutionary design changes to the GLOCK that dominates the Limited Class of competitive Shooting Sports worldwide."How is this not a "competition" pistol and why is it allowed. They even list it under the heading Competition. What is the logic behind that.Here is the description of the STI Tactical 5.0 from their web site:The STI Tactical is well suited for multiple applications, ranging from police and SWAT teams requiring a firearm with a light rail and high capacity, to the individual demanding a high performance pistol with special features for personal protection. The tactical rail milled into the dust cover of the frame accepts all industry standard light mounts.It is listed under the "Tactical" heading but it can't be used in IDPA because of the full dust cover.Logic?Here is what I think and again like the other poster said opinions are like..........The BOD doesn't like STI but likes Glock, he doesn't like .40 but likes .45 acp. They are the rulers so that is what it's going to be. Again "That's the way we have always done it".I will shoot our local IDPA match because of the people that put it on. I will have fun. What I will spend my practice time and effort on is USPSA. While not even close to perfect, changes to the rule book are approved by an elected BOD. The organization is run by an elected president. If enough of us don't like the way something is being done we can change it. The more I deal with IDPA the more I understand that "that's the way we have always done it" is the way it's going to be.

I think there are more of us than you realize that carry a full-size gun every day. I carry an M&P45 most days concealed. The only guy in our IDPA club that shoots a G35 also carries it daily in a IWB holster.

Even when shooting a .45 in CDP, I download my ammo. My carry Cor-Bons are a good bit more than 165PF!! I don't see a huge difference in downloading a .45 or a .40 to play the game.

[motosapiens]

Changes to the division rules are not likely to change....you are correct in that aspect. They are the way they are for a reason.

but is it a *good* reason? I say no, and I agree entirely with the concept of 'suspend logical thought'. The rules are based on the biases and preferences of a very very small group of people. They make no sense, but I don't really care, it's still a fun game, even with illogical rules.