Beers78n9 Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 A buddy of mine picked up some of the green box American Eagle Green Tipped 62gr XM855f ammo on his last trip to a surplus shop. I just looked them up online and it says that they are lead core, with a steel tip and copper FMJ. Are these allowed at major 3 Gun matches? I know steel core bullets aren't allowed as they are rough on the targets and will result in a DQ. But I checked with a magnet and they don't stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickB Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 M855 designated ammo has a steel core/penetrator, so no, it is not allowed at matches or ranges that prohibit use of this type of ammo. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Gladstone Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Green tip is NATO code for a penetrator round. It will go through steel targets like a hot knife thru butter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomfab Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 XM193 is much harder on steel than M855 due to high velocity. I routinely destroy AR500 steel targets by shooting them excessively with rifles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 Green tip is NATO code for a penetrator round. It will go through steel targets like a hot knife thru butter. No it won't but it will dimple then and make them dangerous for future use. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Gladstone Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Thats funny at Topton it made holes in our steel when a competitor used it by mistake. Destroyed our flashers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glock34shooter Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 XM193 is much harder on steel than M855 due to high velocity. I routinely destroy AR500 steel targets by shooting them excessively with rifles. I have found the opposite to be true. I have shot thousands of 193 at my steel. The distance you are shooting the targets plays a huge role in how long a target lasts. The target in your picture was either shot at extremely close distances for a rifle or with something other than 193. I try not to shoot any steel closer than 50 yards and I prefer longer. The truth of it is all steel rifle targets will wear as time goes on. If you start off with quality steel it will last longer. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landshark45 Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 XM193 is much harder on steel than M855 due to high velocity. I routinely destroy AR500 steel targets by shooting them excessively with rifles. I have found the opposite to be true. I have shot thousands of 193 at my steel. The distance you are shooting the targets plays a huge role in how long a target lasts. The target in your picture was either shot at extremely close distances for a rifle or with something other than 193. I try not to shoot any steel closer than 50 yards and I prefer longer. The truth of it is all steel rifle targets will wear as time goes on. If you start off with quality steel it will last longer. Matt 1st I agree with Matt. If you start off with good steel it will last much longer. 2nd range plays a big part in life and wear of the steel. 3rd if you follow #1 steel core has little if any different effect beyond 100yds. In fact it seems to have similar effects to .308 fmjs at the same distance. I'm not disagreeing that it puts wear on steel faster. I just haven't seen it make any significant difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landshark45 Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Thats funny at Topton it made holes in our steel when a competitor used it by mistake. Destroyed our flashers. Was it Ar500 grade? Some clubs will use Ar400 at distances beyond 450ish. Steel core would slide through the lesser grade steel at closer ranges. Or could it have been very thin Ar500 used for the flashers like a pistol target? How far away were the flashers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Gladstone Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 The flashers were at 200yards AR500 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landshark45 Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 The flashers were at 200yards AR500 Interesting, how thick were they? I regularly see stationary steel shot with steel core at 150yds with no worst effects than 308 fmjs. I'm evaluating 3/8" steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 (edited) But I checked with a magnet and they don't stick. This surprises me - a magnet should stick to real M855. Make sure you hold the magnet to the tip (where the green paint is). Regardless of the arguments about whether steel projectiles do or do not damage targets at any particular rate or distance, please respect the prohibitions imposed by the match. Their targets, their rules. Sometime targets are not made of AR500 - here is an AR400 (I think) target we used at Rio Salado; it was placed at over 300 yards and it still took a pounding, including a penetrator core embedded in its surface: Edited September 11, 2012 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landshark45 Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 (edited) I think sometimes competitors misunderstand what brenel steel is. Brenel is just a hardness rating and there are many different grades. This may be why an above poster thought he saw holes is Ar500 steel at 200yds. While I haven't seen any ill effects on 3/8in Ar500 past 100yds with steelcore 556, we should all follow the rules just like stealthyblagga mentioned above. Edit for... Velocity has a greater effect on steels life even brenel grade Ar500 than steel core ammo. That's why almost any club limits rifle on steel velocity to 4000fps. Some even less at 3500fps. Edited September 11, 2012 by landshark45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I have shot a bunch of 855. First off-it will not go through steel like a hot knife through butter. Steel rated for high power rifle will not be affected by it. Second, it does have steel in it, at least m y magnet is attracted to it. Third, the match and club set the rules so we need to live by them. Some clubs in the southwest and cali-land do not like the possibility of steel sparking a fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickB Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 (edited) Steel plate is interesting stuff. While doing the armour plating on the Australian Bushmaster troop carrier back in the mid 1990's, they would test the plate to make sure that that SS109/M855 would not penetrate. All looked good until someone shot the plate with 55gr M193 which punched holes clean through. Ooops! What was happening was the SS109 steel tip was striking the plate and the projectile would disintegrate. The M193 on the other hand, would deform at the tip and the back end would keep moving with enough energy to punch a hole through the type of plate being used... Mick Edited September 12, 2012 by MickB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 First off-it will not go through steel like a hot knife through butter. Steel rated for high power rifle will not be affected by it. I really doubt that. I shoot reloads at my MGM targets (VTAC @30-40' and a skinny sammy @40-50 yards) and my LV Steel target (50 yards) and they get dimples. If they are getting pocked by lead FMJBT, M885 would probably do even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Doubt all you want, but it is true. I have shot 855, 193, hand loads with 69gr SMK pushing 2800+fps. the 855 does the least amount of depressions in the steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11B Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 If its xm855f then no your not fine. If its xm855lc your fine. They make them in lead core and steel core. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 XM193 is much harder on steel than M855 due to high velocity. I wouldn't be surprised if it was. MGM specifically prohibited XM193 at the Ironman due to high velocity damaging steel. I understand the desire for an objective test (magnet) that can be performed when the shooter is on the line. But XM193 proves that doesn't work. We've found a lot of ammo, like Wolf, with a steel jacket to put less wear and tear on rifle steel shot at 50 yards because of the lower velocity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Schmitt Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I recall reading a post some years back about steel core ammo. Take a decent side cutter and go to work on a green tip round. Try and cut it at the tip and at the neck. This is a good way to check ammo and I think it is what we will do at one of our matches. I had an MGM Lolli set up at about 70 yards and it got turned on the fiberglass rod. That piece of steel on the back side has a hole in it the size of a nickel and the plate got dimpled real good along the left side on both plates. The shooter, whoever he was had some windage issues with his zero. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busyhawk Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 All good points... My only real experience is I was the Range Master for the 1st Special Forces Group (A) at Fort Lewis. When we put in our ranges (43-45) and our shoot house we only used targets and bullet traps using AR 500 steel. On the ranges we only used MGM Targets/bullet traps and R&R Targets and for over 2 1/2 years at ~100 yards never had a problem with damage to our targets! There were 12 targets per range and they stayed out there 365 days a year! We only used Green tip 62 grain ammo with some Mod 0 77 grain loads too, not counting shooting them with the SAW, M4, SPR, sniper rifles (M24s) and 240B's. I expected to be replace the skins of the targets but still have the extra skins in the conex on the range. Now on the other hand I did loan out a 50 BMG target that was AR500 for a team to go to Yakima (long range there) and it came back full of holes...they tried to zero their M82 Barretts at 100 yards using API ammo onto the steel target...REALLY! If a magnet sticks to the bullet...cut it to really see what the magnet is sticking to...and yes...a magnet will stick to a green tip that the Army issues, not so much to the tip but to the side for sure. The penetrator is em-placed in the bullet and contrary to popular belief is not very accurate! For AMU, each lot is tested to see which lot is the best and only then is it selected...spinning a bullet with a different weight in the center (to the best of their ability) and spinning it with a (select your rate) barrel twist just makes it worse. Remember the saying: "Sometimes you get what you pay for!" Just adhere to the range regulations, but at the Northwest Multi-Gun Challenge you will not see a rifle steel target less than 90 yards away...that is just looking for damage in my book. Putting on a match is expensive enough without trying to damage targets...If I owned a target company then destroying steel is ok, but when I have to replace steel during a match or each year is to steep for my/our wallet. We have not had to replace any steel target in the 6 years and I don't want to start now. Hell, without the outstanding support of MGM Targets http://www.mgmtargets.com/ (Travis Gibson) and R&R Targets http://randrtargets.com (Robert Wright) we would really have to raise the entry fees just to pay for all the steel. Just my .02 anyhow...but what do I know Busyhawk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Doubt all you want, but it is true. I have shot 855, 193, hand loads with 69gr SMK pushing 2800+fps. the 855 does the least amount of depressions in the steel. So to conserve my steel targets I should use greentip. That's interesting. I wondered why the military even developed 855 when 193 apparently has better penetration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 This guy shoots his MGM target at 80 yards with Greentip: I would say the target is affected by Greentip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomfab Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 This guy shoots his MGM target at 80 yards with Greentip: I would say the target is affected by Greentip. He taped the plate to a tree. If not allowed to move, steel gets ruined very quickly with nearly any rifle ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abn-rgr Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 XM193 is horrible on steel. There is a reason MGM will void their warranty if targets are shot with it. Green tip does a helluva lot less damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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