DID I DQ you be the RO

[PKT1106]

I don't see a DQ.

[latech15]

Dq on the match video and the practice video.

[latech15]

now I will let you guys in on the secret. I was not even close to a dq. this is why when a DQ occurs at match that i have given and someone wants to protest with video I always say i don't need to see the video. this is a video angle trick. that i didnt even realize until i went and watched someone elses video. at the 10 secdon mark my shoulder and gun is in line with the center target the cameraman was standing parallel to me but at an angle to the the targets. idf the targets where in view it would be clear.watch closely my gun never continues to mover with my body it stay aimed at the targets as my support catches up to the turn. and i press out.

No secrets here bud. At the 7-8 second mark when the gun is clear of the holster and your hips are still facing up range is where the issue is. That is assuming that Joel is standing at the rear of the shooting box and directly up range.

Again, I saw the same thing in the practice video.

Remember there are 10-12 draws in a match. Don't get DQ'ed because you were trying to shave time here. Pick it up on movement and transitions.

Edited June 5, 2012 by latech15

[bobtorre]

DQ! You were not facing down range when the gun was out. The gun pointing down while drawing is allowed but facing downrange while you do it is key for safety reasons... I think this ia good lesson for everyone and kudos to the RO

Edited June 5, 2012 by zorro

[bobtorre]

Oh, yes DQ on the practice video as well

[bobtorre]

Allow me to illustrate

[sperman]

Maybe this NROI ruling will help:

Question:

The glossary in Appendix A3 gives the definition of facing uprange as "face and feet pointing straight uprange with shoulders parrell to the 90-degree median intercept of the back-stop. so if on the start signal my eyes turn towards the direction I am turning and my shoulders and feet are no longer in the their original position, am I considered to no longer being facing uprange and may draw my handgun without violating 10.5.16

Answer:

In order to assure consistent application of this rule, the following shall apply: After the start signal, regardless of the type of holster used, access to the trigger is prohibited until the competitor has rotated his body sufficiently to cause the holster's muzzle line to have passed through the point which represents "90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop".

Edited June 5, 2012 by sperman

[racerba]

10.5.16 Drawing a handgun while facing uprange.

From the Glossary:

Facing Uprange . . . . . . . . .Face and feet pointing straight uprange with shoulders parallel to the backstop.

Draw . . . . . . . . . . . . .The point at which a handgun is removed or disengaged from the holster so as to allow access to any portion of the interior of the trigger guard.

Facing Uprange in the glossary was put there for the start position (I guess it should have been more clear but there is a rule for pointing the gun uprange).

...what i do is secure my gun by holding it in the holster until my gun side begins to turn. if you standing parallel to the backstop that is defined by the 180 it is impossible when turning into your gun to break the 180 given you dont fall down or point it backwards as soon as your hips begin the turn you are no longer parallel to a back stop. the only thing to judge at that point is the muzzle if if you flip the muzzle a weird way its possible.

According to the glossary and for the sake of argument, you are facing 270 at the start position. So you believe it is OK to draw when you are at the 250 since you are not "facing uprange"?

[bobtorre]

Good rulings. Thanks for sharing.

Edited June 5, 2012 by zorro

[kcobean]

Maybe this NROI ruling will help:

Question:

The glossary in Appendix A3 gives the definition of facing uprange as "face and feet pointing straight uprange with shoulders parrell to the 90-degree median intercept of the back-stop. so if on the start signal my eyes turn towards the direction I am turning and my shoulders and feet are no longer in the their original position, am I considered to no longer being facing uprange and may draw my handgun without violating 10.5.16

Answer:

In order to assure consistent application of this rule, the following shall apply: After the start signal, regardless of the type of holster used, access to the trigger is prohibited until the competitor has rotated his body sufficiently to cause the holster's muzzle line to have passed through the point which represents "90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop".

That is a poorly written definition because it uses the term itself in the definition, i.e. " facing up range means face and feet point straight uprange".....What?

I understand the median of the backstop is a line that runs perpendicular to the face of the backstop. The 90 degree median intercept is then the face of the backstop itself. So your shoulders have to be parallel to the backstop or the line that would represent the backstop when calculating the median and median intercept in cases where you may be shooting into the corner of a bay.

90 degrees from the median intercept would be "the 180" as we know it, so if your trigger gaurd clears the holster prior to rotating at least 90.0 degrees from start position, you are in violation of 10.5.16.

So OP, based on the video, if you truly started "facing uprange" as the definition indicates, it does not appear that you rotated at least 90.0 degrees before clearing your holster and did in fact earn a DQ. I'm not sure how the camera angle changes that.

I can see how that would be a difficult call for an RO though because he'd have had a fraction of a second to absorb that info and process it.

[Mat Price]

Maybe this NROI ruling will help:

Question:

The glossary in Appendix A3 gives the definition of facing uprange as "face and feet pointing straight uprange with shoulders parrell to the 90-degree median intercept of the back-stop. so if on the start signal my eyes turn towards the direction I am turning and my shoulders and feet are no longer in the their original position, am I considered to no longer being facing uprange and may draw my handgun without violating 10.5.16

Answer:

In order to assure consistent application of this rule, the following shall apply: After the start signal, regardless of the type of holster used, access to the trigger is prohibited until the competitor has rotated his body sufficiently to cause the holster's muzzle line to have passed through the point which represents "90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop".

now yes using that ruling I 100% should have earned a DQ. SO i guess I did dq I need to change the way i do this then.

[Mat Price]

now I will let you guys in on the secret. I was not even close to a dq. this is why when a DQ occurs at match that i have given and someone wants to protest with video I always say i don't need to see the video. this is a video angle trick. that i didnt even realize until i went and watched someone elses video. at the 10 secdon mark my shoulder and gun is in line with the center target the cameraman was standing parallel to me but at an angle to the the targets. idf the targets where in view it would be clear.watch closely my gun never continues to mover with my body it stay aimed at the targets as my support catches up to the turn. and i press out.

No secrets here bud. At the 7-8 second mark when the gun is clear of the holster and your hips are still facing up range is where the issue is. That is assuming that Joel is standing at the rear of the shooting box and directly up range.

Again, I saw the same thing in the practice video.

Remember there are 10-12 draws in a match. Don't get DQ'ed because you were trying to shave time here. Pick it up on movement and transitions.

thanks for pointing that out to start with jeff.

[Matt P.]

To me, it is very clear and there is no doubt it is a DQ.

If it were on my stage, I would have stopped you.

[bbbean]

Never mind. I had an attack of male answer syndrome.

BB

Edited June 5, 2012 by bbbean

[old506]

What if the target isn't on the 90 perpendicular to the backstop? What if the target is just off the shooters right shoulder on the 180 or just off the 180?

Edited June 5, 2012 by old506

[Matt P.]

What if the target isn't on the 90 perpendicular to the backstop? What if the target is just off the shooters right shoulder on the 180 or just off the 180?

Simple.

Turn,

then draw,

then STEP back if you need to engage a target that is on the 180.

[Matt Griffin]

What if the target isn't on the 90 perpendicular to the backstop? What if the target is just off the shooters right shoulder on the 180 or just off the 180?

Then it would be incumbent on the shooter to not clear the trigger guard until such time as the muzzle would be precisely in line with the target or past the target.

If you de-weight your strong side leg and start the turn by throwing your hips rather than turning your shoulders, I've found that I can't move my hands fast enough to draw the gun before I've cleared the 180. Don't start the draw with your hands and then turn, do everything at once and the problem will go away.

Matt

[old506]

So I am in the peanut gallery at Nationals watching the super squad. There is an up-range start with the first target on the 180 just off their right shoulder and everyone of them will Turn, Then draw on the 90 perpendicular to the backstop, step back and then engage the target on the 180?

What if the target isn't on the 90 perpendicular to the backstop? What if the target is just off the shooters right shoulder on the 180 or just off the 180?

Simple.

Turn,

then draw,

then STEP back if you need to engage a target that is on the 180.

[old506]

Thanks Matt, I must be confused though. I thought this was about the trigger guard coming out before the shooters shoulders are perpendicular to the backstop?

Man, I am confused!

What if the target isn't on the 90 perpendicular to the backstop? What if the target is just off the shooters right shoulder on the 180 or just off the 180?

Then it would be incumbent on the shooter to not clear the trigger guard until such time as the muzzle would be precisely in line with the target or past the target.

If you de-weight your strong side leg and start the turn by throwing your hips rather than turning your shoulders, I've found that I can't move my hands fast enough to draw the gun before I've cleared the 180. Don't start the draw with your hands and then turn, do everything at once and the problem will go away.

Matt

[outerlimits]

The turn and draw movement is very simple. Remember 3 things. 1) always turn into the gun; 2) at the buzzer, snap your head hard to the targets; 3) turn, THEN draw. No one said you can't have your hand on the gun while turning...just don't draw!

[38supPat]

I usually step across with whichever foot is farthest from the direction I'm turning. Left foot if going right, right foot if going left. Stepping across immediately turns your hips downrange. On a stage with a target right on the 180, which is IMO a bad stage design since it is clearly a 180 trap, I will do as Matt says, give up a bit on the draw to make sure you are safe. Let's face it, everyone is going to have to do the same thing or face going home so there's no point trying to gain a tenth of a second there. And that's all we are talking about, maybe a tenth of a second at most, for something that is not going to win you the match anyways but can sure end your day pretty quick.

[Matt P.]

So I am in the peanut gallery at Nationals watching the super squad. There is an up-range start with the first target on the 180 just off their right shoulder and everyone of them will Turn, Then draw on the 90 perpendicular to the backstop, step back and then engage the target on the 180?

What if the target isn't on the 90 perpendicular to the backstop? What if the target is just off the shooters right shoulder on the 180 or just off the 180?

Simple.

Turn,

then draw,

then STEP back if you need to engage a target that is on the 180.

So it doesn't matter who the shooter is or what match you are at. You as the shooter can calculate your own risks in what you want to do. I seriously doubt that a stage would exist that starts you uprange and then places a target on a 180. Doesn't sound like a good stage design to me.

Usually what people do in that situation is during the Q&A section of the stage briefing, the competitor would ask the RO if the target is a 180 violation before they shoot if it were that close.

Now for you, with the situation you described, there are too many variables. Your forward step could be beyond a 180 or you could over run your gun on index trying to locate the target on the 180.

[kcobean]

I usually step across with whichever foot is farthest from the direction I'm turning. Left foot if going right, right foot if going left. Stepping across immediately turns your hips downrange. On a stage with a target right on the 180, which is IMO a bad stage design since it is clearly a 180 trap, I will do as Matt says, give up a bit on the draw to make sure you are safe. Let's face it, everyone is going to have to do the same thing or face going home so there's no point trying to gain a tenth of a second there. And that's all we are talking about, maybe a tenth of a second at most, for something that is not going to win you the match anyways but can sure end your day pretty quick.

That's a good point. I've been spending some time in the rule book and I found 2.1.4 which says:

"Target Locations – When a course is constructed to include target loca-

tions other than immediately downrange, organizers and officials must

protect or restrict surrounding areas to which competitors, officials or

spectators have access. Each competitor must be allowed to solve the

competitive problem in his own way and must not be hindered by being

forced to act in any manner which might cause unsafe action. Targets

must be arranged so that shooting at them on an “as and when visible”

basis will not cause competitors to breach safe angles of fire."

Putting a target off a shooters right shoulder so that the left side of the target (the target's right shoulder) is on the 180 does not really meet the spirit of this rule, though I suppose it does meet the letter.

Edited June 5, 2012 by kcobean

[38supPat]

You can place targets in a 360 degree circle around the start position, as long as the stage allows the shooter to solve it in such a way as he isn't forced to be right on the 180.

If I had a stage with a big wall running parallel to the backstop and placed a target at each end of the wall, then had a 2' wide shooting box/area up against that wall and started the shooter facing up range I'd be creating a 180 trap. Same stage but give the shooter a 10' wide shooting area and start him facing up range back against the wall, similar start position but now I've allowed the shooter to get to a position where he isn't forced to the 180 line. It would still suck as a stage and I would never have a shooter start a stage that way but at least it gives the shooter an option.

Years ago we had a stage at my home club (I had nothing to do with it) where the shooter started with an unloaded gun on a table and the shooter was seated in a chair. The table was facing directly at 90 degrees to the backstop into the left hand berm, the first target was right in front of the shooter on the 90. Guess what happened to the very first shooter (right handed) when he picked up his gun to load it and engage that target?

[Matt P.]

He won the match?

Sorry Pat, I couldn't resist......