gary2232 Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 (edited) Got my first hand loads at the range,noticed funny looking holes! yes we got tumblers. Where do I start to make adjustments. Here's the stats. Gun: CZ Shadow Bear Creek 135gr over 3.8gr Winchester 231 makes power factor. OAL 1.090 CCI primers Blazer brass slight crimp very slight crimp Shot at 7 to 10 yards The groups were good but tumbling. What or where do i start to stop this? More powder? Crimp?Any suggestions please. Edited May 18, 2012 by gary2232 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Vigilante Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Tumbling bullets are sometimes a result of too much crimp. Did you actually measure the crimp? I'm sure others will chime in with what could have caused the tumbling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torogi Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 I got tumbling with heavier bullets. But still, im using 147gr Bear Creek Im curious about the crimp, i've never thought of that. I think i crimp at 0.376". I have to double check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sroe3 Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 I crimp Bear Creek .378. Start with that. Increasing velocity imparts more spin and can improve stability. Try that next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gary2232 Posted May 18, 2012 Author Share Posted May 18, 2012 (edited) CORRECTION I SEE I POSTED THE WRONG BULLET WEIGHT IN MY FIRST POST I AM USING A 135GR BEAR CREEK I do not have a bullet in hand as I post this but my setup with crimp die was to just remove the flare from case mouth. With the CZ having a tight chamber at 1.090 I am touching the lands at 1.090 could that be it?? I also loaded BC 125gr RN over 4.0 win 231 OAL 1.060 and same crimp with great results. I will post measurements when I get home and can mic case. But I think it was .378 sore3 I am at the very bottom of powder charge I will try 4.0 gr and see. Edited May 18, 2012 by gary2232 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gary2232 Posted May 19, 2012 Author Share Posted May 19, 2012 Ok my crimp is .380 so I would say no crimp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Vigilante Posted May 19, 2012 Share Posted May 19, 2012 (edited) I would tighten it up at least to .376/378. Could be that no crimp is causing the tumbling. Also no crimp could mean you could get some bullet setback. Also could be your barrel doesn't like the BC 135's. You might try some fmj/cmj's like Montana Gold and see how they work out with your barrel. Edited May 19, 2012 by The_Vigilante Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted May 19, 2012 Share Posted May 19, 2012 I don't have your particular brand of gun (more specifically, the barrel). But I can tell you that I could not get BC bullets to not tumble out of my 9mm factory barreled Glocks, and that was experienced by other Glock shooters out my way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve RA Posted May 19, 2012 Share Posted May 19, 2012 Are you just using a paper target with no backing ?? If so, sometimes the paper will tear and it may appear the bullet is tumbling when it really isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gary2232 Posted May 22, 2012 Author Share Posted May 22, 2012 No standard IDPA cardboard tragets. Holes are long and tore. I recrimped my existing loads, I was too light or even not enough crimp to remove the flare. I will shoot this week to see if that corrected problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzzieF Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I'm almost thinking the OAL is to short. The 135 gr bear creek is quite a bit longer than the 125. Probably compressing the load. Bring it out to 1.130 and give it a shot. Or you are to tight on the crimp. Measuring sometimes is difficult. I like to to pull the bullet with a kinetic puller and see what the bullet actually looks like. There should be a very slight casing mark on the bullet. If to much crimp you will see a dramatic indent into the bullet. The profile of the 135 bullet shouldn't be touching the lands as it tapers pretty quickly on the 135 as opposed to the 125 which has a longer shoulder. That's my .02 Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Harrington Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 We have seen problems with heavy lead bullets in the CZs. I have one customer, that is a very competent reloader, that tried EVERYTHING to make them work with no luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gary2232 Posted May 22, 2012 Author Share Posted May 22, 2012 We have seen problems with heavy lead bullets in the CZs. I have one customer, that is a very competent reloader, that tried EVERYTHING to make them work with no luck. I took on a lot here. New CZ owner, Had to learn about the short chambers and new to reloading at the same time. I have been set on making these Bear Creek bullets work. I like the price and many say good things about them and he is a local guy. I thought I had the 135gr worked out then got this tumbling thing? I have been shooting the 125gr (about 350 of them) and as of now they look good,tight group make PF and feed well,that will be my go to bullet. But the 135 also was good then I noticed the tumbling so,if this keeps up and I have trouble with the 125 also I will try some Berrys, I have them on the way. Want to get back to focusing improving my shooting and less time loading if that is possible.When I get it all sorted out I will post my results of the Bear Creek bullets I have worked up loads on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLM Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I had to change powders with my CZ 85 to use heavy lead or moly. Solo 1000 worked awesome. I had tumbling with anything else i tried. I could shoot Montana Gold 147's with anything without issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boxerglocker Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 All I load is a BC 135g RN in 9mm with 4.0g of WST for both my STI Spartan at 1.150 and G34 with LWD barrel at 1.130, crimp is .377 and all loads fit in a EGW case gauge. Velocity is right at 100 fps, 135 PF. At 25 yards both guns group 2 inches or less freestyle with clean holes. I would suggest getting your crimp to the same .377-.378 range and make sure your velocity is not just hovering minimums... 130 minimum I prefer 135. YMMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gary2232 Posted May 27, 2012 Author Share Posted May 27, 2012 Ok got the crimp set correct and bumped the powder up and tumbling went away. I think I was to light on both. Thanks guys for all you input. As always great info here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trident Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 Ok got the crimp set correct and bumped the powder up and tumbling went away. I think I was to light on both. Thanks guys for all you input. As always great info here. Crimp set at what? and powder at what? may help someone else.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gary2232 Posted May 28, 2012 Author Share Posted May 28, 2012 Ok got the crimp set correct and bumped the powder up and tumbling went away. I think I was to light on both. Thanks guys for all you input. As always great info here. Crimp set at what? and powder at what? may help someone else.... Sorry, .378 crimp I had no crimp at all and win 231 @ 3.9gr. I think 135gr need a little more pressure to get moving. I used them today and all looked good out to 20 yards.CZ 75 Shadow CCI primer Blazer Brass .378 crimp 135gr Bear Creek Moly Winchester 231 3.9 gr OAL 1.090 Bear Creek 125gr Moly Blazer Brass .378 Crimp Win 231. 4.0gr OAL 1.065 fps avg. 1030 This is my favorite load. Makes PF and tight groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gallardo0311 Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Thanks for the info..... I am going to load some tomorrow.... 147gr bear creek and 2.9-3.0 of titegroup with oal of 1.155 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torogi Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Gary, Thanks for the recipe. I am getting tumbling too with 147gr BC. With clean barrel (assuming its the culprit), i get 1 out of 32 shots to tumble. That is when I switched to Solo1000. with W231, I got worse results. I thought before 1 tumble on a stage.. its fine. ITS SOFT! But now, I think ill take a snappier load for accuracy. I may switch back to 124s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gary2232 Posted July 8, 2012 Author Share Posted July 8, 2012 Gary, Thanks for the recipe. I am getting tumbling too with 147gr BC. With clean barrel (assuming its the culprit), i get 1 out of 32 shots to tumble. That is when I switched to Solo1000. with W231, I got worse results. I thought before 1 tumble on a stage.. its fine. ITS SOFT! But now, I think ill take a snappier load for accuracy. I may switch back to 124s. I have shot at least 2K of 125gr Bear Creek now and great results. I did get the 147gr to work but settled on 125gr. Can I ask why you prefer to shoot a heavier bullet? I just need the education. I also notice after I clean the barrel of moly coat My groups are not as tight but no leading yet so that's good. Getting ready to buy more powder I thinking of 231 again it's been good. I shot some of my store bought ammo this week and now I understand the benefit of hand loads . My groups are better and recoil is great with hand loads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torogi Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 I did get the 147gr to work but settled on 125gr. Can I ask why you prefer to shoot a heavier bullet? I just need the education. I really like the 147gr because of the soft shooting. To be honest, A week ago I shot a 124gr moly bullet off a G34 and it felt even softer than my 147gr load from my CZ Shadow. I have to pick up my jaw from the gravel after that. a light bullet traveling approx sonic speed (1080FPS) has almost the same felt recoil with my heavier bullet traveling at subsonic speed (870 FPS). Now that being said, im seriously contemplating switching to 124gr bullets. heals the tumbling effect and better accuracy. snappy for sure... but accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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