Muzzle direction during reloads

[Chills1994]

BINGO!

In my ideal black and white world, IDPA would/should pull the club sanctioning.

But I "ain't" Bill Wilson, Joyce Wilson, or Robert Ray.

IDPA and USPSA are both businesses. Businesses like revenue...

On a much different note... I have said it here a bunch of times, but the major governing bodies, the NRA, and the NSSF need to all get together and get state range protection laws enacted. (and/or pass reduced range liability laws as a work around for suburban sprawl).

No ranges=no shooting sports, it's just that simple.

[theblacknight]

Aiming the muzzle up is common practice in Magpul DVDs and at ranges that are nowhere near civilization.Snarkiness detectedquote]

Just as an aside, it's also part of the reloading method taught by at least two of the co-founders of the IDPA.

And every other credible instructor out there in the practical world and the games. While there are a lot of things that don't transfer between "training" and gaming, a proper workspace reload should be one of them. I recomend you find a club that dosent need thier little kid gloves to shoot with.

[tackdr1ver]

could you please point out where I said anything those lines?

I said it should get bumped up the chain.

Let them decide what they want to do with it.

One could easily interpret your "bumped up the chain" statement as saying that HQ can overrule a clubs own safety rules.

No, but IDPA could dissolve the clubs ability to run IDPA matches if it's not adhering to the rules of IDPA. In any sport from Baseball to Hockey, the home team doesn't get to choose the rules.

[Model19]

could you please point out where I said anything those lines?

I said it should get bumped up the chain.

Let them decide what they want to do with it.

One could easily interpret your "bumped up the chain" statement as saying that HQ can overrule a clubs own safety rules.

No, but IDPA could dissolve the clubs ability to run IDPA matches if it's not adhering to the rules of IDPA. In any sport from Baseball to Hockey, the home team doesn't get to choose the rules.

Again, show me where in the rulebook it says you have to be able to reload muzzle high. Can't do it, can you?

I have no skin in the game so the point is academic to me. But as an admin at a club for almost a decade I understand the pressure on clubs in areas where urban sprawl has changed how they have to do business to stay alive. As I said in an earlier post, my club has no issues with the practice. Might we in 10 years? Maybe. Another local club, non-IDPA, has seen attempts by new neighbors to shut them down by finding bullets on downrange properties that supposedly came from that range. Luckily an astute sheriff investigator realized that there were no rifling grooves in the evidence. Other folks have claimed psychological damage from the noise. So far they have avoided legal action and continue to operate after probably 40 years of doing so. Not all ranges are blessed with Arizona desert sized backstops. I say let the urban clubs run IDPA even if they have to have such safety rules in place. We're supposed to be accountable for any round we send out, right? I thought this game was about flexibility and proficiency in real world scenarios. Not every gunfight will allow you to do a high speed muzzle up reload, so roll with it and shoot the match. Or maybe is this really about being a bit slower than the guys who have to reload muzzle flat all the time so they may be better at it than the rest of us when we run against them? In the end it's all trigger time with the same targets and scoring system, so just relax and have fun with it and be glad to have another venue to compete at. The millions in prizes will still be there for us all. Not. ;-) Safety, then fun.

[Sac Law Man]

I believe the Tiger Team is addressing this very issue. If a club does not allow a muzzle high reload, then Its time to find somewhere else to shoot, all it shows is ignorance on the clubs governing body. The problem is even if the guns muzzle is almost parallel to the ground, at some point (as you get further away from the berm) the muzzle will point over the berm. It doesn't take a lot! If a shooter has an AD, then deal with it.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Sac Law Man

[Paul-the new guy]

And why are those guys in your pictures not wearing cover garments and why is all their gear in the wrong place? :-)

I think we can agree on the fact that HQ will not react due to the very reasons you gave.

Geoff

Check out the re-loads in this video Video I am pretty sure it is IDPA ;-)

I think if a club wants to host a sanctioned match of a specific disipline then there should not be any range rule that differs or is more restrictive than the rules of the sanctioning body. just my opinion...

[Dacsoft]

I think if a club wants to host a sanctioned match of a specific disipline then there should not be any range rule that differs or is more restrictive than the rules of the sanctioning body. just my opinion...

I disagree with this. Isn't the 180 rule about the same? IDPA doesn't have a 180 rule, but many clubs do. So these clubs also shouldn't be able to become IDPA clubs? Both are safety issues that a club should be allowed to enforce. The muzzle-up rule is becoming adopted by more and more clubs.

[theblacknight]

could you please point out where I said anything those lines?

I said it should get bumped up the chain.

Let them decide what they want to do with it.

One could easily interpret your "bumped up the chain" statement as saying that HQ can overrule a clubs own safety rules.

No, but IDPA could dissolve the clubs ability to run IDPA matches if it's not adhering to the rules of IDPA. In any sport from Baseball to Hockey, the home team doesn't get to choose the rules.

Again, show me where in the rulebook it says you have to be able to reload muzzle high. Can't do it, can you?

I have no skin in the game so the point is academic to me. But as an admin at a club for almost a decade I understand the pressure on clubs in areas where urban sprawl has changed how they have to do business to stay alive. As I said in an earlier post, my club has no issues with the practice. Might we in 10 years? Maybe. Another local club, non-IDPA, has seen attempts by new neighbors to shut them down by finding bullets on downrange properties that supposedly came from that range. Luckily an astute sheriff investigator realized that there were no rifling grooves in the evidence. Other folks have claimed psychological damage from the noise. So far they have avoided legal action and continue to operate after probably 40 years of doing so. Not all ranges are blessed with Arizona desert sized backstops. I say let the urban clubs run IDPA even if they have to have such safety rules in place. We're supposed to be accountable for any round we send out, right? I thought this game was about flexibility and proficiency in real world scenarios. Not every gunfight will allow you to do a high speed muzzle up reload, so roll with it and shoot the match. Or maybe is this really about being a bit slower than the guys who have to reload muzzle flat all the time so they may be better at it than the rest of us when we run against them? In the end it's all trigger time with the same targets and scoring system, so just relax and have fun with it and be glad to have another venue to compete at. The millions in prizes will still be there for us all. Not. ;-) Safety, then fun.

There is nothing in the rule book saying you can't do a proper workspace reload,it's no one's job to add rules on top of this.We show up expecting to shoot IDPA, not the club's, MD, or SO's version of it. No, "we" arnt accountable for someone's rounds,they are,as you are yours. If you want to write up a plausable scenario that somehow makes level muzzle reloads(maybe on a airplane? ehh prob not) a legit requirment, cool, I'll shoot it. Maybe you just like to relax and have fun and just be happy but most show up to do all those things and above all, win,or come back another day better to win.

Marginalizing the reload is at the same level as requiring all shooting be done SHO because the shooter might loose grip and put one thru his other strong hand. It happens.It's however no grounds to marginalize the game at such a fundamental level.

[Onagoth]

I've read several times in this thread that there is nothing in the rule book preventing these reloads.

I'm not sure where you guys are getting this from. IDPA uses muzzle safe points, which are designated by match officials. If the match officials say you cannot point your muzzle at the ceiling of an indoor range, they are perfectly within the rules IMO

[speedrrracer]

I've read several times in this thread that there is nothing in the rule book preventing these reloads.

I'm not sure where you guys are getting this from. IDPA uses muzzle safe points, which are designated by match officials. If the match officials say you cannot point your muzzle at the ceiling of an indoor range, they are perfectly within the rules IMO

Exactly! Someone who knows the rules! My hat is off to you, sir. You are a rare breed.

Same at my local indoor range. The range spent almost a half-million dollars for armor to prevent rounds from exiting via the roof when those rounds are fired from the firing line.

However, when the range allows the local IDPA (or USPSA) club to run around, the competitors are not restricted to the firing line -- they're running throughout the area normally called "downrange". When downrange of the firing line, the armor is not entirely effective at preventing rounds from exiting through the roof, because it was not built with that in mind. So, the IDPA club must use muzzle safe points, or else they would have to find another place to shoot.

I think it's good training. There are many real-world situations (such as any house where the floor above you might have people) when you would want similar muzzle discipline.

[tackdr1ver]

I think it's good training. There are many real-world situations (such as any house where the floor above you might have people) when you would want similar muzzle discipline.

There is NOTHING "real-world" about IDPA, it is a game. And if you are ever unlucky enough to get in a gun fight, the last thing you'll be thinking about is how high your muzzle is if you get the chance to reload.

[Paul-the new guy]

I think if a club wants to host a sanctioned match of a specific disipline then there should not be any range rule that differs or is more restrictive than the rules of the sanctioning body. just my opinion...

I disagree with this. Isn't the 180 rule about the same? IDPA doesn't have a 180 rule, but many clubs do. So these clubs also shouldn't be able to become IDPA clubs? Both are safety issues that a club should be allowed to enforce. The muzzle-up rule is becoming adopted by more and more clubs.

Those clubs can become IDPA clubs as long as they know that to hold a sanctioned match they will have to use muzzle safe points instead of a 180 rule. Although I think that even local club level matches should not be subjected to any rules that are more restrictive than the governing rule book. This is not even close to the same thing because stage design dictates where the muzzle safe points are the shooter determines where the muzzle is during a reload. Most of the higher level shooters (no, I am not one of them) reload with the muzzle elevated at least sometimes. There are so many what ifs.... During most re-loads the muzzle is in the air for what .5 second? IDPA and USPSA have very good safety records. Whats next, no running? Cant shoot on the move? Can't shot from prone? Can't use low cover? No steel? No metal target stands? Frangible ammo only? All firearms must be supressed? Primer powered ammo only? Single shot fire arms only? Revolvers only? Hey if the BOD of a club makes the rule in the name of safety then its ok, right?

[Glock3422]

Remember that a round aimed upward can travel a couple of miles and still kill on impact.

I would like to see some data on that.

According to JBM, the maximum range of a 115 gr 9mm, which I would assume would travel the farthest, is 1.2 miles when fired at 35 degrees.

21.5 seconds later:

The terminal angle is 66.7 degrees.

The terminal velocity is 290 ft/sec.

Terminal energy is 21 ft lbs.

I have been hit by a full size, intact 9mm off of a backstop in the chest, from about 60 feet round trip. It hurt, it left a mark, I got a great souvenier.

Fatal? Hardly.

Now, is there a risk of a round over a berm? Absolutely. Forcing unnatural movements to fix the problem will likely result in more ADs, not fewer. I shot a match at a range that had this sort of rule once.

[theblacknight]

There are so many what ifs.... During most re-loads the muzzle is in the air for what .5 second? IDPA and USPSA have very good safety records. Whats next, no running? Cant shoot on the move? Can't shot from prone? Can't use low cover? No steel? No metal target stands? Frangible ammo only? All firearms must be supressed? Primer powered ammo only? Single shot fire arms only? Revolvers only? Hey if the BOD of a club makes the rule in the name of safety then its ok, right?

Quit yur bitchin', you should just be happy to shoot!

[rscalzo]

This was the topic of conversation during a recent SO training course at Sig. Due to the proximity of residences and other structures around the academy, during their events, they will "comment" on keeping the muzzle at or below the berms which are fairly substantial. They have a perfect safety record since they opened years back and they aren't looking to ruin that. Simply looking at the ceiling of the indoor range will tell you shots can and do go high.

But on the other hand, i myself favor the muzzle high reload and it has been advocated by more than a few instructors for high speed reloads during competition and the real world.I frequently used it during FI quals over the years. As far as a revolver, it's pretty much mandatory.

[ski098]

The Range I shoot at always had the "muzzle ceiling" rule, but it wasn't really enforced until a local plane was hit by a 9mm round while it was landing. http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2011/03/29/pilot-finds-hole-in-airplane-after-flight-from-philadelphia/ (FYI it was not a round from the IDPA match, this happened during the week)

The airliners fly directly overhead as they are coming in for a landing. There's also a large highschool that is 1 mile away in the direction the berms are. It is really unlikely that a round at that distance would injure someone, but could you imagine the media coverage if a round from the IDPA match broke a window at a high school...?

I've learned to live with it for the most part.

Edited May 15, 2012 by ski098

[theblacknight]

[Bugs Bunny]

"Do your local clubs ... require that the muzzle be level with the ground at all times even during reloads, etc ?"

The short ans. is a resounding YES, but they try to give the shooter as much slack as possible, if one flaunts it, they're DONE, plain & simple as that !

While old ideas and behaviors die hard, it's not that difficult to modify ones speed-load if a bit of work is put into it. Also, if everyone has to conform to the same Safety standards, then it should be impossible to gain a significant advantage. However the muzzle not elevating above the horizontal is the one rule that is the most difficult for shooters to manage well & with consistency.

As far as USPSA or IDPA HQ making demands on the host Club their position is one of: "If you don't like the way things are here, you can shoot somewhere else." The Clubs attorney spells it out long the lines of: "Nothing is to leave the club grounds thru the air..." Holds true for all/any Match held there, not just IDPA. Reason being they are in an area that wasn't that populated back in the early post-war years but has grown up to literally surround their host Gun Club.

Another reason is that this Club has the only 25 yard indoor range for hundreds of miles around {exception is one Commercial Range} so they are able to shoot year-round, even in very cold weather. They don't take kindly to unnecessary damage to their various ranges or there members, but the main problem is punching a round thru the roof. It's quite true that most all the damage comes from casual use of their ranges by new or less -skilled newer members {who had even found a way to shoot thru a very small section of the rear wall} which by the way has proven quite a problem since the last National elections, given the type of citizen that is now more likely to purchase a handgun, fully expecting someone to teach them how to use it or that the whole business of owning a "weapon" is a piece of cake or some contrivance to take to the range on Sunday and just Blast away at targets with no regard or understanding of a backstop or what's behind their target, etc.

[Gryff]

I've shot a local match at a club in the southeast that had a no-higher-than-the-berm rule. Quite frustrating, since nearly every >Sharpshooter indexes the muzzle up during the reload. It is also what kept me from coming out to their sanctioned regional championship. I understand the reason for their rules. I hope they understand my choice to spend my competition dollars somewhere else.

[bornhunter04]

I just started shooting IDPA back in the Spring, at my first match I did a reload high in the workspace, and they told me after the run to keep it down lower. No problem, slight adjustment to my reloading technique. I still get it up in my workspace, just keep the muzzle pointed towards the berm (we have very high berms). I understand the reasoning why, just have to deal with it. That's shooting on a state run facility too.

[chb119]

It seems most people are looking at this as how it affects me the shooter, but clubs are looking at it at how the actions within the range affect things outside the range. 99% of shooters follow the rules, but one new shooter on the 1st stage of the day does a reload and accidently sends a bullet out of the range and it hits something, then future matches and the club itself is in jeopardy. Stop thinking of yourselves and realize the rule is there to contain everyone’s bullets not just yours. Proactive measures need to be taken for safety. I have no problem with people not wanting to shoot at clubs that have these rules, because I am sure that is not the only thing they will be complaining about.

[ProGunGuy]

these are usually range rules. Lot of these ranges were opened way back when before they became surrounded by homes. Not every range is in the middle of the stix. I have personally seen a couple of ND that went over the berm. I have seen enough rounds that went off by surprise when people were pressing out. I have even been told by a couple of ranges that if a round leaves the range, that shooter is responsible for any damages.

Remember folks, without insurance, many thing can not be done. throw a round and it kills someone? insurance will be hard to get afterwards

[Paul-the new guy]

Funny how at our "club" the only rounds leaving the range are on the static ranges....

[Gryff]

I have no problem with people not wanting to shoot at clubs that have these rules, because I am sure that is not the only thing they will be complaining about.

Really? Are you absolutely sure? Or is this transference?

these are usually range rules. Lot of these ranges were opened way back when before they became surrounded by homes. Not every range is in the middle of the stix. I have personally seen a couple of ND that went over the berm. I have seen enough rounds that went off by surprise when people were pressing out. I have even been told by a couple of ranges that if a round leaves the range, that shooter is responsible for any damages.

Remember folks, without insurance, many thing can not be done. throw a round and it kills someone? insurance will be hard to get afterwards

Understandable. But if a range is facing that circumstance, then they need to give serious consideration as to whether they should be hosting action pistol matches at all.

As I said, I sympathize with a range that feels the need to do this. But I'm also not going to spend $500+ in airfare and a couple hundred in hotel costs to go shoot a championship match at a range that feels that institutes these rules. Not hating on them. Just not going to spend a lot of money to go shoot there.

[theblacknight]

What if clubs started having all stages shot SHO because freestyle increases the chance of your other strong hand ending up in front of the muzzle.Sounds like s safe step inthe right direction to me.

How about holsters? These things are very dangerous. They can cause people shoot themselves.