Piston Driven - Starte ARs

[Jayce]

Looking to get my first AR. I've been looking around for a good while and pretty much have narrowed it down to two.

S&W M&P15 PS or Stag Arms Model 8? Does anyone have or know anyone with experience with these rifles?

They're both in the same price point with the exception of the Stag Arms comes with MI folding BUIS where as the M&P does not come with sights at all.

I can't tell a difference between the piston systems themselves but it seems Stag Arms' system seems more robust. I'll refer to more experience on that front.

Thanks guys

[kellyn]

My first question would be: why a piston gun?

[THM7]

For 3gun go with a DI rifle. I cannot see any advantage of a piston other then shooting surppressed or extended full auto.

[Jayce]

Well, I've heard reliability and part mangement in the long run, and less stuff to clean after a day at the range.

[mcattack]

I have a stag 8, so far it has done OK. The gun had a problem shooting steel cased ammo at first and broke but 1 thing stag will do is stand behind there product. Sent me a shipping label to send it to them and sent it back in a week with complete rebuilt lower end and in a new plastic gun case, did not cost me a dime. It may shoot a little softer than my other rifle but its not that much different and it is very accurate. It still has to be cleaned but not as much as a regular rifle. I like not hearing the twang spring sound as you shoot it but is it worth $300 more for the piston system I am not sure. May be better to put that money to building one more suited for 3 gun.

Edited December 1, 2011 by mcattack

[Jayce]

Thanks mcattack, I'll def keep that in mind.

This is still my first AR. I wanted to start with something basic and there aren't a lot of 3gun matches in NJ. I figure I'd start with something and it's what lead me to a piston AR in the first place.

I was def not going to buy another rifle (not right away anyway). I wasn't going to convert it. And the price looked as if it were comparable to other DI ARs when comparing prices here in NJ.

Just don't want this to turn into the dead horse beating DI vs Piston debate.

[DocMedic]

Thanks mcattack, I'll def keep that in mind.

This is still my first AR. I wanted to start with something basic and there aren't a lot of 3gun matches in NJ. I figure I'd start with something and it's what lead me to a piston AR in the first place.

I was def not going to buy another rifle (not right away anyway). I wasn't going to convert it. And the price looked as if it were comparable to other DI ARs when comparing prices here in NJ.

Just don't want this to turn into the dead horse beating DI vs Piston debate.

The problem with Piston AR's is there not basic, and can be quite a PITA to take apart to clean. You're basically trading increase "reliability" for extra weight(and extra cost), The true advantage for a piston driven system over DI, is if you're going to run a Suppressor. With that said though, I've seen some wicked Piston driven AR's,but those are a little out of your price range.

Edited December 1, 2011 by DocMedic

[Jayce]

Well The two rifles are at about $1000. I don't really mind the weight.

[smokshwn]

Often times people ask questions wanting only validation not advice. If you have already chosen a piston gun, buy what you want.

However, you may consider that you have fallen to quite a bit of hype and not too much substance. In theory a piston gun may be more reliable. But remember, a DI gun maintained properly is an incredibly reliable firearm in the first place. There are quite a few of us who have tuned AR's that are running right at the edge with adjustable gas systems, lightened bolt carriers and lightened buffers and we still see easily 800-1000 rds before routine cleaning is needed. Then a rudimentary wipedown and relubing is all that is necessary to be gtg again.

Add to this fact that in the race to build the latest whizbang piston system, guess what? Not all piston guns are the paragon of reliability. The volume of knowledge is just not as deep. Pistons were introduced, then we found carrier tilt. Remedies for carrier tilt ensued. Then we saw carrier keys breaking, the fix....one piece carriers. etc etc. What you end up with is a gun that has several proprietary parts that can no longer be fixed without those parts in hand and few if any are mil spec which means I (or any other shooting buddy) can't share my parts with you unless we have the same exact model of gun.

You may think "I don't really mind the weight" but we aren't complaining of the weight from the standpoint of adding overall weight to the weapons system. We are speaking of heavier reciprocating mass due to the increased complexity of piston systems. This means increased recoil and muzzle jump. This compromises your ability to shoot the weapon quickly and transition from target to target....all compromises.

So in the grand scheme of things you spend more $$$ for an arguable increase in reliability and pay all kinds of costs to have a "Piston Gun".

If I was advising you on $1000 gun to do damn near anything you could want from an AR platform and do it well, it would be hard to beat a DPMS 3G1.

Edited December 1, 2011 by smokshwn

[ac4wordplay]

Often times people ask questions wanting only validation not advice. If you have already chosen a piston gun, buy what you want.

However, you may consider that you have fallen to quite a bit of hype and not too much substance. In theory a piston gun may be more reliable. But remember, a DI gun maintained properly is an incredibly reliable firearm in the first place. There are quite a few of us who have tuned AR's that are running right at the edge with adjustable gas systems, lightened bolt carriers and lightened buffers and we still see easily 800-1000 rds before routine cleaning is needed. Then a rudimentary wipedown and relubing is all that is necessary to be gtg again.

Add to this fact that in the race to build the latest whizbang piston system, guess what? Not all piston guns are the paragon of reliability. The volume of knowledge is just not as deep. Pistons were introduced, then we found carrier tilt. Remedies for carrier tilt ensued. Then we saw carrier keys breaking, the fix....one piece carriers. etc etc. What you end up with is a gun that has several proprietary parts that can no longer be fixed without those parts in hand and few if any are mil spec which means I (or any other shooting buddy) can't share my parts with you unless we have the same exact model of gun.

You may think "I don't really mind the weight" but we aren't complaining of the weight from the standpoint of adding overall weight to the weapons system. We are speaking of heavier reciprocating mass due to the increased complexity of piston systems. This means increased recoil and muzzle jump. This compromises your ability to shoot the weapon quickly and transition from target to target....all compromises.

So in the grand scheme of things you spend more $ for an arguable increase in reliability and pay all kinds of costs to have a "Piston Gun".

If I was advising you on $1000 gun to do damn near anything you could want from an AR platform and do it well, it would be hard to beat a DPMS 3G1.

As usual, excellent info from smokshwn.

[ChristianHE]

I've got an awesome CMMG Piston AR (in addition to my DI ones) and yes, it's action stays very clean. In about 5000 rounds I've only opened and cleaned the piston once, just to take a look, and I just add a little lube now and then to the BCG.

BUT... I was surprised that with many loads I have tried, it is not as accurate as my DI guns with those same loads. I've had maybe 3 FTE/"jams", it's super reliable but a bit heavier and not as accurate.

[bgary]

Often times people ask questions wanting only validation not advice. If you have already chosen a piston gun, buy what you want.

However, you may consider that you have fallen to quite a bit of hype and not too much substance. In theory a piston gun may be more reliable. But remember, a DI gun maintained properly is an incredibly reliable firearm in the first place. There are quite a few of us who have tuned AR's that are running right at the edge with adjustable gas systems, lightened bolt carriers and lightened buffers and we still see easily 800-1000 rds before routine cleaning is needed. Then a rudimentary wipedown and relubing is all that is necessary to be gtg again.

Add to this fact that in the race to build the latest whizbang piston system, guess what? Not all piston guns are the paragon of reliability. The volume of knowledge is just not as deep. Pistons were introduced, then we found carrier tilt. Remedies for carrier tilt ensued. Then we saw carrier keys breaking, the fix....one piece carriers. etc etc. What you end up with is a gun that has several proprietary parts that can no longer be fixed without those parts in hand and few if any are mil spec which means I (or any other shooting buddy) can't share my parts with you unless we have the same exact model of gun.

You may think "I don't really mind the weight" but we aren't complaining of the weight from the standpoint of adding overall weight to the weapons system. We are speaking of heavier reciprocating mass due to the increased complexity of piston systems. This means increased recoil and muzzle jump. This compromises your ability to shoot the weapon quickly and transition from target to target....all compromises.

So in the grand scheme of things you spend more $ for an arguable increase in reliability and pay all kinds of costs to have a "Piston Gun".

If I was advising you on $1000 gun to do damn near anything you could want from an AR platform and do it well, it would be hard to beat a DPMS 3G1.

As usual, excellent info from smokshwn.

+1, with the caveat that I'm not familiar with this "cleaning" thing he mentions.

"reliability in adverse conditions" is the big claim for piston-op, which should be interpreted as "the piston can force the BCG to cycle when the gun is so full of mud/sand/grit/goo that a DI gun would puke". That may be important in the sandbox, but generally not a normal condition for what most of us do.

[Dustbuster1]

I like JP components like the rest of the guys but seeing u asked, piston guns are just heavy as in over 7 lbs w a small scope. My work rifle is a piston gun as is my rec 7 both are reliable cinder blocks.I would get tired of prepping one gun for competition only to use it 3 days later to hunt with. Piston does run cleaner but I line using DI rifles because I want to clean and inspect it before taking it to a contest. It's a safety and reliability thing. Jesse and the pros use these guns like a water hose spewing lead if it holds up for them id look close at what they run and take their input as the gospel.doing is a lot diff than u tube vids showing ... Hope this helps

For 2 grand you can build exactly what you want to do both under 6.5 lbs, w a nice optic that the big dogs would admire and have a hard time wearing out. If weights not a problem you can get into a POF or lwrc bulldozer that can do both but at a cost. I'm a noob at 3 gun but I initially had a similar thought until I got in and ran some stages... Light and reliable is good. Good luck in your quest let us know what you decided!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 of course it ate my spelling.

[Alaskapopo]

Well, I've heard reliability and part mangement in the long run, and less stuff to clean after a day at the range.

You will have more parts problems with a pistol gun. A friend of mine with a LWRC had to borrow my Noveske after his rifle started to literally have pieces of it fly off in the piston area. As for cleaning these guns they don't need it as often as you think. One very well known firearms instructor had a loaner gun he had students put over 14000 rounds through before it stopped working. He was just lubing it in set intervals. AR's need to be run wet being clean is not so much of a requirement. I clean my AR"s before major matches and in normal use every 500 rounds or so but they can go much longer if need be.

Pat

[caspian guy]

I shot one of the s&w piston guns at a local rifle match. It was on a side match stage with flash targets out to about 300 yards. It was suficiently accurate to be able to hit all the targets and didn't bounce around much more than a normal di gun (say one that didn't have low mass parts and adjustable gas). I think they use some flavor of the Adams Arms system, not sure which system the stag uses. It wouldn't be my choice for an AR but if you just wanted a piston gun it seemed like it would be a solid choice.

[KellyTTE]

If you have to have a piston gun PWS makes the best that there is.

Having said that, I've had several and all my ARs are DI now. For the weight penalty a piston gains you nothing.

Galaxy Note II + Tapatalk 2

[StealthyBlagga]

The piston AR15 industry reminds me of the dietary supplement business... big benefit claims, but little real evidence to back up the claims other than fawning gun rag articles (does ANYONE believe what they read in gun magazines anymore?). There are lots of negatives with piston guns: greater reciprocating mass, degraded barrel harmonics, and lots of heat moved from the receiver (where your hand isn't) to the handguard (where your hand is!).The fact that you almost NEVER see a piston gun at a 3-Gun match should tell you all you need to know. In my experience, good quality and properly lubed DGI AR15s are every bit as reliable as piston guns. Indeed, in recent years I've seen a lot of piston guns (even the "legendary" FN SCAR) puke often at 3-Gun matches.

My advice: spend your money on a good quality 18" or 20" DGI AR15 with free-float handguard, match trigger and decent muzzle brake, then go out and shoot some matches. Lube the bolt from time to time and I'm betting it will shoot for as long as any piston gun would.

Edited November 29, 2013 by StealthyBlagga

[KellyTTE]

That is some truth right there.

Galaxy Note II + Tapatalk 2

[PatJones]

As a gunsmith I spend too much time chasing parts for proprietary gas piston ARs. If you shoot with a suppressor they keep the excess gas out of your face, but they do not group as well as a standard gas system and it's a pain to get parts.

[Mturnbull333]

I run a LWRC IC SPR and love it, I have a swaro z6i and run 69 grain nosler and it's as accurate as anybody else out to 600, but I have a lot tied up in it but the reassurance of knowing its gonna run is worth it, also it has the spiral fluted barrel so the weight is not a factor for me or my 14 year old daughter who competes with it also.

[Alaskapopo]

I run a LWRC IC SPR and love it, I have a swaro z6i and run 69 grain nosler and it's as accurate as anybody else out to 600, but I have a lot tied up in it but the reassurance of knowing its gonna run is worth it, also it has the spiral fluted barrel so the weight is not a factor for me or my 14 year old daughter who competes with it also.

With respect how do you know it groups as well as anyone elses gun. Have you compared groups at distance?

Pat

[Mturnbull333]

Of course I have compared groups or I would not have mentioned that, I have 3 other AR plat forms I shoot also including my first DI gun which is not a bad gun but just doesn't group as well, I have two piston guns LWRC and POF which bolth shot sub MOA the LWRC is better and lighter the POF is a tank, so in short yes I have compared my piston gun to DI guns at range and It does shoot as well as the DI guns.

[Mturnbull333]

Not to beat a dead horse but I've owned a LWRC REPR that I would shoot out to a 1000 yards, which is also a piston gun, so I just don't buy that DI guns are inherently more accurat.

[Alaskapopo]

Of course I have compared groups or I would not have mentioned that, I have 3 other AR plat forms I shoot also including my first DI gun which is not a bad gun but just doesn't group as well, I have two piston guns LWRC and POF which bolth shot sub MOA the LWRC is better and lighter the POF is a tank, so in short yes I have compared my piston gun to DI guns at range and It does shoot as well as the DI guns.

The LWRC my friend has is not bad but its around a 1.5 moa gun. My JP is a .75 moa gun. DI Guns are inherently more accurate because they have less going on simply put. Does it make a huge difference no but generally you will see piston guns not shooting as well as DI guns with similar barrels and set ups. Not a big fan of pistons on AR's personally. Its adapting a system that the AR was never meant to run with and it causes issues like carrier tilt. If you want a piston gun in my opinion you should get one that was designed from the ground up to work that way like the SCAR. However you have good guns and like them so don't let us dissuade you. Keep having fun.

Pat

Edited November 29, 2013 by Alaskapopo

[Mturnbull333]

I respect your opinion, my gun shoots under a minute, always has, I have no issue with a gas gun except the afore mentioned, I hate gas in my face, with no wind my eyes will start watering and it affect my long rang vision, so until I get to the point I shoot better than the equipment I have now I will continue to use it.