Weak hand or Load 2?

[Nuke8401]

So for those that have used both successfully, which do you think is better and what would be a good par time goal for weak hand to compete with a load 2 set up. I understand load 2 is easier to learn than weak hand, but is load 2 really faster?

With no knowledge of load 2, I see a couple of issues:

1. You take the gun down from the shoulder and are “looking the shells in” which keeps your eyes down off the targets more/longer than weak hand.

2. Can you move/walk as freely/fast as you can when loading weak hand?

I am just beginning to get decent at weak hand reloads and wonder if I'm wasting my time?

So should I stay on the weak hand reloads or just “buy” the speed with load 2?

David E.

[MarkCO]

So for those that have used both successfully, which do you think is better and what would be a good par time goal for weak hand to compete with a load 2 set up. I understand load 2 is easier to learn than weak hand, but is load 2 really faster?

With no knowledge of load 2, I see a couple of issues:

1. You take the gun down from the shoulder and are looking the shells in which keeps your eyes down off the targets more/longer than weak hand.

2. Can you move/walk as freely/fast as you can when loading weak hand?

I am just beginning to get decent at weak hand reloads and wonder if I'm wasting my time?

So should I stay on the weak hand reloads or just buy the speed with load 2?

David E.

Yes. Every method you master is another tool in your box. I'm about 11 seconds weakhand load 8 (not sure if that is succesful or not), about 5 seconds load 8 from the TWinS SSL (Chest Rig), about 6 seconds for the TWinS FSL (Belt caddie TWinS loading) and about 10 seconds loading 8 one at a time off a wrist band. However, I am still working on all of them.

I can move MUCH faster loading TWinS from the belt and the vest, takes less dexterity and frankly less focus. When the last load is trapped in the loading port, my eys are up on the targets, about the same as a weakhand load.

FWIW, some of the demos folks have posted recently are not using some of the fastest or reliable techniques. If you can not beat 5 seconds, 9 times out of 10 doing weakhand, you are slower than you would be with a TWinS or Load 2 rig. The fumble factor is MUCH reduced with these systems and they are less susceptible to issues of heat, fatigue, etc.

Edited October 19, 2011 by MarkCO

[Nuke8401]

MarkCO,

Thanks for the reply, I hadn't considered using more than one loading method/system. I strive to keep things as simple as possible and am not sure my little brain could keep everything straight with different systems.

David E.

[carbon9]

Good questions and good answers, dammit. Now I'm gonna have to buy one. My biggest concern and reason for not purchasing yet was moving and loading with the shotgun captured upside down at my side instead of remaining at my shoulder. Didn't know if moving around barricades would be more difficult or possibly breaking the 180 with it at my side as well. Guess I will find out sooner then later. It would also be helpful if somebody could post a relieved loading port profile which would work well for both weak hand and Load 2. A lot of people aren't going to want to keep grinding on their shotgun because they switched loading methods.

[Nuke8401]

I think for now I'll stay with weak hand reloads. I practiced yesterday using a timer for the first time. I can load 8 using a 7 second par time about 9 of 10 times. My empty gun load 8 is about 8-9 seconds.

David E.

[bigbrowndog]

stick with weakhand it is more flexible and adaptable than loading off a chest rig. IOW, try doing other methods from positions other than standing, like prone or stuffed into a car seat, or hanging from a swiss seat witha rope in front of you, or crouched low into a port and the effectiveness of not having to change the way you load or manipulate your SG becomes quite clear.

Trapr

[Casman]

As someone who has tried the 2x load in lots of different positions, I will say that it is a lot more adaptable than you would think. That said, I definitely agree that there are still times that the weak hand load will be better suited to a particular situation. I definitely do NOT agree that you should just stick with one method. That would be like saying that since four wheel drive isn't the best answer in all situations you should just stick with two wheel drive. Use the two different techniques in their respective strong areas and you will get further down the road. Contrary to what you might think, it isn’t hard to program different loads into your stage plan.

[Nuke8401]

Well it looks like I might have to try the Belt caddie TWinS as it apparently allows loading both weak hand and load-2. Maybe a Christmas present to myself.

Thanks for all the input and I do agree that having more GOOD options is the best plan.

David E.

Casman, Dang, if you were going to let Kurt beat you by 13.7991 match points why didn't you just turn it up a notch and whip him!!!

[MarkCO]

Well it looks like I might have to try the Belt caddie TWinS as it apparently allows loading both weak hand and load-2.

Yep, I loaded weakhand twice off the CA TWinS FSL Caddie at the USPSA MG Nationals. Worked great. Used the SSL vest on 2 stages and the FSL Caddie on the rest.

[Casman]

Well it looks like I might have to try the Belt caddie TWinS as it apparently allows loading both weak hand and load-2. Maybe a Christmas present to myself.

Thanks for all the input and I do agree that having more GOOD options is the best plan.

David E.

Casman, Dang, if you were going to let Kurt beat you by 13.7991 match points why didn't you just turn it up a notch and whip him!!!

Well no matter how you load, it still helps to know how to shoot the shot gun too, and that's something that Kurt is pretty OK at.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Casman

[CJW]

This is only indirectly related to the question at hand, but...

For those with load-two chest or belt rigs, have you had any ammo retention issues when a stage forces you to go prone (or some other weird stance, up against barricade, whatever) before you get to shotgun? I'd be really worried about going waist or chest down with the load-two rounds clipped in. Also, how many reloads in load-two configuration can you carry? Knowing I can easily run four 6-round caddies for 24 extra shells is a nice thing for some long stages; can a load-two system match that?

Thanks!

[MarkCO]

This is only indirectly related to the question at hand, but...

For those with load-two chest or belt rigs, have you had any ammo retention issues when a stage forces you to go prone (or some other weird stance, up against barricade, whatever) before you get to shotgun? I'd be really worried about going waist or chest down with the load-two rounds clipped in. Also, how many reloads in load-two configuration can you carry? Knowing I can easily run four 6-round caddies for 24 extra shells is a nice thing for some long stages; can a load-two system match that?

Thanks!

You can get up to 32 rounds on the Carbon Arms vest. 3 of the 12 round FSL caddies would give you 36. In 8 major matches, James nor I have lost a single shell using both FSL caddies and SSL chest rigs. I've not heard anything about losing shells from any of our customers either. Heck, Jamie rolls around on the ground with his. We've been prone many times, including on asphalt and concrete. The beauty of the Carbon Arms systems are the adaptability. Configurations, angles, etc. can be changed. I wore a 8 round on my left back belt on one stage at USPSA MG Nationals and was able load just fine off of that.

[Casman]

This is only indirectly related to the question at hand, but...

For those with load-two chest or belt rigs, have you had any ammo retention issues when a stage forces you to go prone (or some other weird stance, up against barricade, whatever) before you get to shotgun? I'd be really worried about going waist or chest down with the load-two rounds clipped in. Also, how many reloads in load-two configuration can you carry? Knowing I can easily run four 6-round caddies for 24 extra shells is a nice thing for some long stages; can a load-two system match that?

Thanks!

I have run SSMM3G, Blue Ridge, Iron Man, RM3G, Nordic Components Tactical Shot Gun, Adam's Arms Ozark, and Multi-gun nationals with a combination of the Carbon Arms FSL caddies and Carbon Arms SSL chest rig. So far in all those matches I have only been able to knock one shell free. It was in a prone position at Blue Ridge and I was using the vest with only 16 rounds on it. It wasn't a problem because I didn't need all the rounds I had with me. After that I added 16 more rounds to the vest for Iron Man (for a total of 32 rounds) and with your body weight distributed across all those shells, I have not lost a single round since. The caddies have some potential for losing the top round on each side when prone if you are not careful. This has been a very small issue to date since a little planning before the stage can avoid the problem. That said; we are working on a modification that can be retrofit to the caddies to make the issue go away.

I haven’t had any trouble at all with barricades. As for round count, as I said above the SSL vest can carry 32 rounds easily and the caddies carry either 8 or 12 rounds and it is no problem to get two or three caddies on the belt.

James C.

Well, Mark beat me to the reply while I was typing. As I say I did manage to knock one shell off but it wasn't a problem due to having extras planned in.

Edited October 27, 2011 by Casman

[CJW]

One more question, since I know my g/f is interested in this... Any female shooters using these systems? And, if so, have they noticed any, ummm, particular issues with the high-belt or chest mount systems?

[arsoncop9]

it takes practice but i prefer the weakhand load. I find that i can move and load in just about any position. I am sure with great practice the SSL vest would accomplish the same task. It all boils down to practice, practice, and more practice.

[co-exprs]

I am extremely competitive (or rather strive to be) at every thing I do. Character flaw I guess. Anyway, shotgun reloading is straight up a necessity for a competitive 3gunner. For whatever reason weak hand reloading has been a real struggle for me. If I had to guess, I'd say I have about 80 solid hours practicing weak hand reloading, over the past 2 years. I am only just recently able to run a consistent 7sec, 8 shell reload, shot to shot. Not slow, but not fast enough to win stages either. I started stacking shells on my counter top and loading 2 at a time just to see if I could get the hang of it. I fumbled them and threw them all over the place, but after a couple of hours and some chewed up fingers, I was running about 8sec. A buddy of mine got a load 2 style belt and let me try it out and after only about 30min with the belt I was running about 7sec. I bought one of the Carbon Arms belt caddies and can run that unit in about 7 seconds also. So about the same as weak hand. Then, just today I had some sort of break though as I borrowed my buddies belt again and after another hour practice I can consistently run 6sec and even got in a couple of 5sec runs. That's 8 shells, shot to shot in 5-6sec. Here's the kicker. I've got a realistic 10 or so hours on the load 2 method. There are only a hand full of guys in the world who can consistently reload 8 shells, weak hand in less than 6sec. Up until tonight I was still on the fence for the load 2 method, but now I'm a believer. Ultimately, you'll need to be familiar with several different methods and weak hand is in my opinion still the most versatile method, but load 2 is certainly a great place to start. I am now confident that with a few more hours practice I will be able to run a consistent 5sec, 8 shell reload.

[MarkCO]

As for the female question, go watch the new Benrlli 3Gun video. Katie Harris uses a vest in that video.

Arsoncop9, weakhand takes great practice, TWinS loading, nowhere near as much. I'm 4.8 to 6 with TWinS, about 10-12 weakhand and the TWinS has a much lower fumble factor. I have about 10 total hours practice on TWinS, not even close to the frustrating amount of time trying weakhand. Allows me to focus more on shooting than reloading and has about doubled my percentages on all shotgun stages.

[ArmdCtzn]

So, which is better, chest or belt mount? I'm so used to having my shells on my belt a chest rig seems odd. Also, do the 12-round holders dig into your beer gut the way typical six-round caddies do? I've found that six-round caddies make it difficult to shoot from kneeling and any positions where you have to bend at the waist.

[MarkCO]

So, which is better, chest or belt mount? I'm so used to having my shells on my belt a chest rig seems odd. Also, do the 12-round holders dig into your beer gut the way typical six-round caddies do? I've found that six-round caddies make it difficult to shoot from kneeling and any positions where you have to bend at the waist.

It depends. The Backbone, on the belt, have yielded my only consistent times under 5 seconds. Weakhand, I am a few tenths slower off the chest and a few tenths slower still from the FSL caddies. But, an FSL caddie in front of the pistol, strong side with a strong hand reload is right there with the chest and I don't practice it becasue I don't prefer it. A 12 round Caddie in the front might have an interference fit with a moderate sized beer belly. I wear the 12 FSL off to the left of center about 6 inches and it is not a hindrance. The backbone, with 12 rounds, centered up is not a big deal for bending over. I'm not sure you would be comfortable doing yoga with it on though.

[Stlhead]

I have been practicing with a two at a time loading belt for a while now and while I am by no means any sort of expert, here are my observations so far. I can stuff my heavy metal shot gun 2 at a time faster and more consistently, even with much less practice. When I load my limited shotgun the tides change and it becomes a tie at best. I have been loading weak hand from the belt for much longer and have spent far more time doing it, so if the amount of time spent was equal I am not sure how it would stack up. I am not all that fast in any case, but weak hand with my pump I have a shot to shot with 8 loaded success rate of 80%+ at 6.75 seconds, and with my M2 7 seconds. Loading 2 at a time I am sub 6 seconds about half the time, and just over 7most of the time with the M2. Go figure that one? I am going to keep working both, but if the trend holds I will use two at a time for HM and stick with 4 at a time for limited.

[MarkCO]

I have been practicing with a two at a time loading belt for a while now and while I am by no means any sort of expert, here are my observations so far. I can stuff my heavy metal shot gun 2 at a time faster and more consistently, even with much less practice. When I load my limited shotgun the tides change and it becomes a tie at best. I have been loading weak hand from the belt for much longer and have spent far more time doing it, so if the amount of time spent was equal I am not sure how it would stack up. I am not all that fast in any case, but weak hand with my pump I have a shot to shot with 8 loaded success rate of 80%+ at 6.75 seconds, and with my M2 7 seconds. Loading 2 at a time I am sub 6 seconds about half the time, and just over 7most of the time with the M2. Go figure that one? I am going to keep working both, but if the trend holds I will use two at a time for HM and stick with 4 at a time for limited.

Difference in the actual opening of the loading port? Difference in the forearm adjacent to the loading port?

[Stlhead]

Both loading ports are hogged out (Triangle did the M2, and I did the Nova) the Nova just has a better port to feed, and the shell lifter staying out of the way is a huge help as well. The shells nearly fall into the Nova all by themselves, but I have to put them into the M2. One more reason to stick with HM!

[MarkCO]

Both loading ports are hogged out (Triangle did the M2, and I did the Nova) the Nova just has a better port to feed, and the shell lifter staying out of the way is a huge help as well. The shells nearly fall into the Nova all by themselves, but I have to put them into the M2. One more reason to stick with HM!

Yep, those Novas seem to have shell suction.

If you are going to Superstition, find James and I and maybe we can see something to help you out.

[co-exprs]

Got my Nova yesterday. The feed port is so big I could shove a rubber chicken in there. I've already started working it over for 3gun and it handles load 2 style even better than my souped up SLP. Nova might just be the most feed friendly platform on earth.

[Stlhead]

I have found that the rubber chicken can "foul" up your load times, but it does give the "shottie" that tactical-barnyard swagger that "chicks" seem to dig.