Speed or accuracy

[G-ManBart]

There is no balance between speed and accuracy in USPSA. This sport is geared toward speed. Moderate accuracy is fine if you can do it really fast.

Really?

10 targets, 100 point stage

Shoot all A's = 100 points/15seconds = 6.66 hit factor

Shoot 10 A's and 10 D's = 70points/10seconds = 7.00 hit factor

ummmm, yep speed wins

Shoot 18 A's and 2 Mikes = 90points-20 penalty = 70points/10seconds = 7.00 hit factor

ummmm, seems you can miss fast enough to win

That's ridiculous...when people say you can lie with statistics...that's what it looks like (no, I'm not saying you're lying).

Nobody has to slow down 50% to go from 10 A's and 10 D's to 20 A's....give the shooter a quarter of a second more per split, which is huge, and they're at 12.5s, with 100pts for a HF of 8.

When you use a real example, the picture looks much different compared with the hypothetical ones people always seem to create. 2010 Limited Nationals stage winner points/possible points and percentages:

#1 111/120pts, 92.5%

#2 98/100pts, 98%

#3 148/150pts, 98.6%

#4 136/140pts, 97.1%

#5 131/135pts, 97%

#6 126/130pts, 96.9%

#7 120/130pts, 92.3%

#8 123/125pts, 98.4%

#9 51/55pts, 92.7%

#10 49/50pts, 98%

#11 37/40pts, 92.5%

#12 68/70pts, 97.1%

#13 90/90pts, 100%

#14 92/100pts, 92%

#15 56/60pts, 93.3%

#16 67/70pts, 95.7%

#17 104/110pts, 94.5%

#18 105/110pts, 95.4%

If that isn't proof that you need to shoot accurately enough to get almost all of the points, I don't know what is.

[A38337]

Both are necessary, but . . .

If you are capable of a high degree of accuracy, you can sacrifice some accuracy for speed when the situation dictates.

Remember, the entire brown target is not what you're shooting for. The A zone is your true target. Generally, you want to be shooting 90% A's at your best natural speed.

If you are shooting out of control, you won't get good results.

[edwin garcia]

There is no balance between speed and accuracy in USPSA. This sport is geared toward speed. Moderate accuracy is fine if you can do it really fast.

Really?

10 targets, 100 point stage

Shoot all A's = 100 points/15seconds = 6.66 hit factor

Shoot 10 A's and 10 D's = 70points/10seconds = 7.00 hit factor

ummmm, yep speed wins

Shoot 18 A's and 2 Mikes = 90points-20 penalty = 70points/10seconds = 7.00 hit factor

ummmm, seems you can miss fast enough to win

That's ridiculous...when people say you can lie with statistics...that's what it looks like (no, I'm not saying you're lying).

Nobody has to slow down 50% to go from 10 A's and 10 D's to 20 A's....give the shooter a quarter of a second more per split, which is huge, and they're at 12.5s, with 100pts for a HF of 8.

When you use a real example, the picture looks much different compared with the hypothetical ones people always seem to create. 2010 Limited Nationals stage winner points/possible points and percentages:

#1 111/120pts, 92.5%

#2 98/100pts, 98%

#3 148/150pts, 98.6%

#4 136/140pts, 97.1%

#5 131/135pts, 97%

#6 126/130pts, 96.9%

#7 120/130pts, 92.3%

#8 123/125pts, 98.4%

#9 51/55pts, 92.7%

#10 49/50pts, 98%

#11 37/40pts, 92.5%

#12 68/70pts, 97.1%

#13 90/90pts, 100%

#14 92/100pts, 92%

#15 56/60pts, 93.3%

#16 67/70pts, 95.7%

#17 104/110pts, 94.5%

#18 105/110pts, 95.4%

If that isn't proof that you need to shoot accurately enough to get almost all of the points, I don't know what is.

Finally.... At last...

But I really like your catch line at the bottom about TopShot.

[Coach]

AHH! So it is balanced.

[CallMeBruce]

Ok, I've looked it up and many of the well thought out, statistical analysis type replies are from A and M guys. I'm gonna assume they know from experience AND math. I've been shooting USPSA since December and am C (limited 10 only) so here's my two cents...I set out to shoot A's as fast and safely as I was comfortable, with A's the focus, not speed. My last match, I was top 5-6 on points every stage except the darn classifier. When the scores were posted I was WAY down the list. Forget divisions, 34 out of 50(ish). Thought I would be much better with all those Alpha's. The match before that I actually did better with less points. So what was the difference...SPEED. Not like I was 1/2 as slow as A and M guys. Making up a few seconds each stage (and I could have given up 2-3 points per stage to get the speed) would have moved me significantly up the list. The experienced guys in my club are telling me the same. Give up a few points if that's what it takes to get speed. No one cheers when they hear "2 Alpha" but when they hear a fast time guys get fist bumps...HMMMM.

[JakeMartens]

There is no balance between speed and accuracy in USPSA. This sport is geared toward speed. Moderate accuracy is fine if you can do it really fast.

Really?

10 targets, 100 point stage

Shoot all A's = 100 points/15seconds = 6.66 hit factor

Shoot 10 A's and 10 D's = 70points/10seconds = 7.00 hit factor

ummmm, yep speed wins

Shoot 18 A's and 2 Mikes = 90points-20 penalty = 70points/10seconds = 7.00 hit factor

ummmm, seems you can miss fast enough to win

That's ridiculous...when people say you can lie with statistics...that's what it looks like (no, I'm not saying you're lying).

Nobody has to slow down 50% to go from 10 A's and 10 D's to 20 A's....give the shooter a quarter of a second more per split, which is huge, and they're at 12.5s, with 100pts for a HF of 8.

When you use a real example, the picture looks much different compared with the hypothetical ones people always seem to create. 2010 Limited Nationals stage winner points/possible points and percentages:

#1 111/120pts, 92.5%

#2 98/100pts, 98%

#3 148/150pts, 98.6%

#4 136/140pts, 97.1%

#5 131/135pts, 97%

#6 126/130pts, 96.9%

#7 120/130pts, 92.3%

#8 123/125pts, 98.4%

#9 51/55pts, 92.7%

#10 49/50pts, 98%

#11 37/40pts, 92.5%

#12 68/70pts, 97.1%

#13 90/90pts, 100%

#14 92/100pts, 92%

#15 56/60pts, 93.3%

#16 67/70pts, 95.7%

#17 104/110pts, 94.5%

#18 105/110pts, 95.4%

If that isn't proof that you need to shoot accurately enough to get almost all of the points, I don't know what is.

OK here is from a stage this past weekend

14 points better, 5 seconds slower

Place Name USPSA Class Points Penalty Time Hit Factor Stg Pts Stage Percent

1 Mike Foley L3300 M 144 0 18.31 7.8646 160.0000 100.00%

2 Micah Barcelo A55030 M 149 0 20.10 7.4129 150.8105 94.26%

3 Grady Whitelaw FY375 A 149 0 20.48 7.2754 148.0131 92.51%

4 Jake Martens A52987 A 148 0 21.15 6.9976 142.3615 88.98%

5 John Blackwell A52087 B 158 0 23.98 6.5888 134.0447 83.78%

12 points better, 3 seconds slower

Place Name USPSA Class Points Penalty Time Hit Factor Stg Pts Stage Percent

1 Blake Miguez FY29399 GM 129 0 19.04 6.7752 150.0000 100.00%

2 Dave Sevigny TY42164 GM 135 0 19.93 6.7737 149.9668 99.98%

3 Daniel Horner A48668 M 138 0 21.04 6.5589 145.2112 96.81%

4 Ted Puente TY42094 GM 137 0 21.33 6.4229 142.2002 94.80%

5 Shannon Smith TY38969 GM 141 0 22.04 6.3975 141.6379 94.43%

I just shot the Wabash Open, and pulled up the first stage in limited at the Florida Open and WOW, look speed wins out over points (accuracy) AGAIN

I can pull up real match results all day long and keep showing you this stuff, it is speed over accuracy.

What is a hit factor, how FAST you can shoot points, the FASTER you shoot the points the HIGHER your hit factor is.

It is not balanced, Speed trumps accuracy every time.

NO I am not saying that you don't have to be an accurate shooter, you do, but when it comes down to what is weighed more heavily it is SPEED.

Hit factor is determined by divided points by time, when the divisor is a smaller number (meaing faster) the hit factor is going to be higher, it is just plain old math.

Do you need to be an accurate shooter, yep, bullseye accurate, nope.

Everything we do in shooting a course is about doing it faster, faster draw, faster transistions, economy of motion, moving from position to position faster, setting up faster, getting in or out of a position faster.

Everything we do to the gun is about it shooting faster, lighter slide, lighter hammer, lighter springs, full length dust cover = faster sight recovery, lighter triggers.

New shooter comes on here and ask how to shoot faster all the time, not alot of them are asking how to be more accurate.

[G-ManBart]

OK here is from a stage this past weekend

14 points better, 5 seconds slower

Place Name USPSA Class Points Penalty Time Hit Factor Stg Pts Stage Percent

1 Mike Foley L3300 M 144 0 18.31 7.8646 160.0000 100.00%

2 Micah Barcelo A55030 M 149 0 20.10 7.4129 150.8105 94.26%

3 Grady Whitelaw FY375 A 149 0 20.48 7.2754 148.0131 92.51%

4 Jake Martens A52987 A 148 0 21.15 6.9976 142.3615 88.98%

5 John Blackwell A52087 B 158 0 23.98 6.5888 134.0447 83.78%

12 points better, 3 seconds slower

Place Name USPSA Class Points Penalty Time Hit Factor Stg Pts Stage Percent

1 Blake Miguez FY29399 GM 129 0 19.04 6.7752 150.0000 100.00%

2 Dave Sevigny TY42164 GM 135 0 19.93 6.7737 149.9668 99.98%

3 Daniel Horner A48668 M 138 0 21.04 6.5589 145.2112 96.81%

4 Ted Puente TY42094 GM 137 0 21.33 6.4229 142.2002 94.80%

5 Shannon Smith TY38969 GM 141 0 22.04 6.3975 141.6379 94.43%

I just shot the Wabash Open, and pulled up the first stage in limited at the Florida Open and WOW, look speed wins out over points (accuracy) AGAIN

I can pull up real match results all day long and keep showing you this stuff, it is speed over accuracy.

What is a hit factor, how FAST you can shoot points, the FASTER you shoot the points the HIGHER your hit factor is.

It is not balanced, Speed trumps accuracy every time.

NO I am not saying that you don't have to be an accurate shooter, you do, but when it comes down to what is weighed more heavily it is SPEED.

Hit factor is determined by divided points by time, when the divisor is a smaller number (meaing faster) the hit factor is going to be higher, it is just plain old math.

Do you need to be an accurate shooter, yep, bullseye accurate, nope.

Everything we do in shooting a course is about doing it faster, faster draw, faster transistions, economy of motion, moving from position to position faster, setting up faster, getting in or out of a position faster.

Everything we do to the gun is about it shooting faster, lighter slide, lighter hammer, lighter springs, full length dust cover = faster sight recovery, lighter triggers.

New shooter comes on here and ask how to shoot faster all the time, not alot of them are asking how to be more accurate.

So let's see....your previous example was a 100pt stage, with half of the hits being Deltas.

Now you use an example (the first one for brevity) that's 160pts, and is the equivalent of every third target or so being A/C rather than A/A. Hmmmm...what's different about that picture?

On top of that, we all know that the Wabash Open and Florida Open, with smaller fields, right at the beginning of the season, mean more than the results of Nationals....that's just downright obvious.

Funny, but I averaged the 2010 Limited Nationals stages and it was 4pts down per stage....four. Any way you cut that, it means you simply have to shoot almost all of the points if you want to win. Oh, and if you go look at the times from all those stages, it's rare that the fastest time won the stage. Go figure!

Regardless, I know where this is going, and we're already into selective reading and math, so it's back to fishing.

Edited March 30, 2011 by G-ManBart

[redneck1861]

My problem that I had was that I watched a very good shooter's videos, he is a member here, then at that match I watched him again, he ran through the stage in alot less time than everyone else, but he also put every round that night into a Alpha. When it was my time to shoot, I figured I would run it as fast as I could possibly pull the trigger. My time was great, I was faster than most people that night. But I had alot of Delta's and a few Mike's. So overall I sucked.

I went out to an actual range with USPSA targets, and wanted to practice my "Double Taps". I have figured out that if I aim for the bottom of the A ring for my first shot, I can fire the second as fast as I can and it will stay in the A ring. So I am confident that I will shoot alot better in my match's this weekend.

Thanks for all the info and suggestions

[Corey]

Hit Factor = Points per Second. More points is gonna make that go up. So will less time. Want to win every match you shoot? Shoot all A's and be the fastest time on each stage. Guaranteed win

[Hungry Beagle]

It really all depends on where you are in your learning curve.

Let's say that Max (and when I say Max, I really mean any one of those phenoms that are at the top of our game: Chris, JJ, KC, the list goes on) can shoot a stage in 20 seconds. Johnny D Class shoots in 50 seconds. He can improve his hit factor by shooting more points in the same time, or shooting the same points in less time. It's a tradeoff, but where will he see the most gain? It's probably easier for him to shoot/run/move faster or cut down his transitions from position to position, because there likely many many things he can do to shave time off from that 30 second differential. Johnny D Class starts running like a bat out of hell, dropping a few more points, but really cutting into his time and sees his scores improve despite shooting a lot of C's, D's and the occasional M's.

Couple years down the road, Johnny's an A class shooter, and can shoot the same stage in around 24 seconds. Can he shave 4 seconds off his time to catch up to Max? Possibly, but he's never going to be up there until he settles down, learns some control and shoots more points. If he's still hitting lots of C's and D's, he's probably taking extra shots on steel, which is costing time and will not let him cut into that 4 second differential. If he isn't practicing accuracy, he's not going to do well at calling his shots, and maybe taking the occasional miss. Once you get to the top, your ability to shoot/run/move faster becomes very difficult, because you're starting to reach the limits of your physical speed.

I don't know if anybody else counts their ammunition when they're at a match, but if I go to a match that is 240 rounds, I expect to use around 250 rounds. I don't want to be firing extra rounds as that wastes time. How do I not fire extra rounds? I try to make sure I hit what I'm aiming at. Steel should go down in one shot. My paper I should be expecting to shoot A's, because even if I miss, it's probably going into the C or maybe even the D. Accuracy is the key. I'm not saying that everything has to be A's, but if you're settling for C's and D's, then you're probably hitting M's as well. (I do hit a lot of C's, which means my accuracy still needs work).

My times are not far off the top guys; I'm about 20% slower than them on most stages. I could go faster, but in doing so, I risk dropping my C into a M. I can get lucky and hit it, but if I'm pushing my speed limits too much, I'm not going to be able to stay lucky consistently; the inevitable M or NS is going to wipe out whatever gains I have made.

The secret to doing well is not to focus entirely on speed, or accuracy, but to find the balance that gets you the best results. Speed can only get you so far, but if you're accuracy isn't there, you won't go the rest of the way.

Edited March 31, 2011 by Hungry Beagle

[CallMeBruce]

The original posters question , was not "Speed or accuracy?" but was "How do I find the balance of speed VS accuracy?" The thread has turned into a challenge of very fine shooting and speed detail and IMO may have no more value to the original poster. The answer for a beginner is VERY different than the answer for A and M+ shooters. For a beginner asking how to improve by finding that balance, at his or her level is not any easier than the Speed VS accuracy debate this thread turned into. As a C shooter and first match 4 months ago, I am also struggling with this question. I have recently shot matches almost all Alphas by being deliberate and then shot matches running full tilt. Neither was much better than the other. My limited experience tells me that I have to continue this process while always working on accuracy until I find the limit of speed with still 90+% Alphas. When I hit that magic crossover, I think I will be able to move to B. Unfortunately, I think the answer to the question is practice often doing drills where you increase speed until your accuracy fails you and then keep practicing until it doesn't at that speed. Then keep doing drills and getting faster while remaining VERY accurate. I think some people are naturally more accurate and some naturally move faster so each person has to find their own balance. I know I need some good coaching AND much more practice and nothing else will answer the question for me.

[Hungry Beagle]

Unfortunately, I think the answer to the question is practice often doing drills where you increase speed until your accuracy fails you and then keep practicing until it doesn't at that speed. Then keep doing drills and getting faster while remaining VERY accurate. I think some people are naturally more accurate and some naturally move faster so each person has to find their own balance. I know I need some good coaching AND much more practice and nothing else will answer the question for me.

Oh. In practice sessions, I work to reduce my times.

At a match, I slow down and shoot at about 85-90% of my top speed. As long as I'm watching my sights, I remain reasonably accurate.

[CallMeBruce]

As I said Hungry Beagle, its a different answer for experienced A and M guys like you than beginners like me and the original poster. Thanks for supporting my point...

[Chris iliff]

Funny stuff, so I ask, "If two competitors hit all available points, who triumphs?"

[Dan Hefta]

Funny stuff, so I ask, "If two competitors hit all available points, who triumphs?"

Like I said before "Speed is King". I rest my case!

[E K]

There is no balance between speed and accuracy in USPSA. This sport is geared toward speed. Moderate accuracy is fine if you can do it really fast.

I'm very new to this sport. I will not pretend to be an expert. In fact, i had never really shot a gun prior to a year and a half ago. I've been practicing off/on since last fall with a lot of great help from some guys on this forum. I shot my first match last weekend and I have been digesting the results since. prior to this match I never gave much thought to speed vs accuracy as my only concern was learning and being safe. I've always been fairly athletic so I figured the speed would come with experience and I would just worry about all of that later. I simply was trying not to get DQ'd!

Stage #3 (my second stage ever) was a short course worth 110 points. I scored 106 points on the course but it took me 20.94 seconds. I finished 19th out of 34 on the stage. In digesting the data of the stage two things jumped out at me.

1. 9th place finisher (10 places in front of me) shot the same amount of points as I did! He did it in 3.94 less seconds and picked up 10 places in the standings!

2. 10th place finisher (9 places in front of me) scored 20 less points than me! He did it in 6.75 less seconds than me. Wow! His 6.75 less seconds were worth more than my 4 additional Alphas.

I understand also that the longer the stage the time factor decreases. It will be interesting though to see how much.

I've been reliving these stages in my head and trying to determine where I can reduce movements. I'm even more hooked than ever now.

[Chris iliff]

Yeah, this sport hooks you like no other! Funnest thing I've ever competed.

Everyone has to learn the balance and somewhere at 90% of all A's is about right to most folks.

There will always be someone as accurate, but a fraction quicker, it's never ending. It's a blast!

[JakeMartens]

There is no balance between speed and accuracy in USPSA. This sport is geared toward speed. Moderate accuracy is fine if you can do it really fast.

I'm very new to this sport. I will not pretend to be an expert. In fact, i had never really shot a gun prior to a year and a half ago. I've been practicing off/on since last fall with a lot of great help from some guys on this forum. I shot my first match last weekend and I have been digesting the results since. prior to this match I never gave much thought to speed vs accuracy as my only concern was learning and being safe. I've always been fairly athletic so I figured the speed would come with experience and I would just worry about all of that later. I simply was trying not to get DQ'd!

Stage #3 (my second stage ever) was a short course worth 110 points. I scored 106 points on the course but it took me 20.94 seconds. I finished 19th out of 34 on the stage. In digesting the data of the stage two things jumped out at me.

1. 9th place finisher (10 places in front of me) shot the same amount of points as I did! He did it in 3.94 less seconds and picked up 10 places in the standings!

2. 10th place finisher (9 places in front of me) scored 20 less points than me! He did it in 6.75 less seconds than me. Wow! His 6.75 less seconds were worth more than my 4 additional Alphas.

I understand also that the longer the stage the time factor decreases. It will be interesting though to see how much.

I've been reliving these stages in my head and trying to determine where I can reduce movements. I'm even more hooked than ever now.

Look another example of balanced

[CocoBolo]

Speed or Accuracy. Making such a statment says I'm taking a shot that isn't there or I'm taking more time than I needed for the shot. My philosophy is its points per second, so the way I can make more points per second is to make the most points with every shot, and spend more time on the stage actually shooting. It is the quiet time on the stage that robs you. Look at the points on the results of really great shooters like Max, Blake, Travis etc, there maybe faster runs but they win the stage with points!

If we look seriously at stage time very little of the difference is in the actual shooting, most of the time difference is in the quite time, the fast guy may not even get there faster than you do but when he gets there he has hit the perfect spot his gun is up and he is ready to shoot, and he isn't looking for what to shoot he is shooting it!

There is a lot of difference in coming to a spot with your gun 3" low and 5" to the right of the first target versus getting there right on the first target (the old spot on the wall alignment trick).

Too many people hang around and admire their work, you called the shot on the steel why you standing there watching it fall? I think BE referred to this as pausing. Pausing is another big detractor.

Edited April 1, 2011 by CocoBolo

[JerryShoots]

There is no balance between speed and accuracy in USPSA. This sport is geared toward speed. Moderate accuracy is fine if you can do it really fast.

Really?

Yes. Which is ok. However,all this talk about balance is crazy. This sport is geared toward speed. Why can't we just be honest and say so. Let's not pretend it is something it is not.

You can have a thousand horsepower but if you can't connect it to the road your still just spinning tires.

Slow and steady doesn't win the race in USPSA true but neither does fast and careless.

Anyone can dump a mag at nothing and get the fastest time anyone got on the stage that day but without hits it's worthless. I can "be honest" and say that I spend way more time getting faster than hitting better shots. I spent a long time becoming a guy who hits what I aim at though.

Equally anyone can hit any target at any distance given an infinite amount of time to accomplish the shot. Without being able to do it quickly that shooter will never win.

So shoot fast and accurate... Remind me how that doesn't involve balance

Let's also not forget the rest of the latin in the motto. Power. You have to be able to control a gun with some kind of recoil to succeed in USPSA. If power didn't matter this would be a 22 fest. Funny how most of us talk about trying to go faster all the time. Slightly less so about making our hits. We almost never say aloud how much we are trying to beat the recoil. Of course while we don't say it we spend more time and money trying to defeat recoil than we do trying to get faster. Is it the dot that makes open gunners faster more than the compensators?

Conclusion...Speed or accuracy? Neither. This is all about you shooter. Practice all of it. Become someone who hits anything you shoot at. Watch how oddly you will get faster and faster the more you practice getting those hits. Practice with powerful ammo and notice how the better you get the less recoil matters to you. The top shooters in the world are lightning fast, hit everything and they control recoil with authority.

[Ben Stoeger]

When I walk off the line I do not really care what my time is. I DO care what my points are.

I am very much in the minority.

[JCReid]

My simple observation is often times speed wins a stage. Accuracy wins the match.

[blaster113]

Ideally you should try and shoot 90% of the available points on a stage as fast as you can. You can have a few C/D hits but not too many, otherwise you're dropping too many points.

Edited November 1, 2011 by blaster113

[Chris iliff]

When I walk off the line I do not really care what my time is. I DO care what my points are.

I am very much in the minority.

National Champion and 2nd at World Shoot. Hmmm, ponder that.

[pops1982]

Funny stuff, so I ask, "If two competitors hit all available points, who triumphs?"

Here nor there, but I ask, "If two competitors have the same time on a COF, who triumphs?"