Long Range Rifle Targets

[GorillaTactical]

Edit: This post, without a doubt, was not originally received as it was intended.

To all those who participate in and are affiliated with the TX Multigun Club, you all are a great group of individuals who always give 110% at, before, and after matches in order to insure things operate smoothly.

I intended no disrespect and had absolutely no malicious intent with my comments regarding the experimental scoring system. I did my best to portray the scoring system we tried and the problems we faced prior (even if it be by citing my personal score as an example) and was simply trying to hear what other had used at their own matches. I was in no way attempting to suggest that "because I competed poorly, the stage was a bad stage". As I stated, I fully recognize that long range marksmanship is just as much a part of 3 gun as any of its many other aspects.

I apologize to the members of the club in general and specifically to Sheldon for what was incorrectly perceived as whining and must insist that my comments were made with the best interest of developing the club in mind.

With all this said, I don't find it a problem to discuss what other matches, specifically major matches do in terms of scoring the really far out targets (the one's out around 500 yards) so that shooters are compelled to attempt to hit them but are not severely penalized if they do not.

Edited February 1, 2011 by GorillaTactical

[aheadofthecurve]

At our local matches we have targets out to 400 yd with 10 second penalties and it seems to work out fine. The guys who win can shoot them fairly quickly. Guys who pass on one or two lose that stage, but still get a decent amount of match points. That said, what size targets do you have out at 500m (547 yd)? Thats pretty far for an AR unless you've got all the good gamer stuff

[Bryan 45]

Bring those 500 yard targets in at least 100 yards. I like shooting long range rifle as much as anyone, but when the wind becomes a major factor in a hit or a miss- and the wind changes considerably from one shooter to the next, there is no way to make things (I hate to use the word fair).

[GorillaTactical]

the 500 yard targets are Larue's. I wish we could pull em in to 400 Brian, but the way the range/berm are setup, it makes doing that "difficult"

[mlmiller1]

Just for the sake of discussion, what if you consider them in a uspsa term "disappearing targets" & then give them a greater point value for hitting them. IOW, you have to engage them for no penalty. If you miss, no penalty(or maybe just a normal "miss" penalty) but if you hit them, the points you gain are enough to make them worthwhile. If you think it takes 3 times as long to hit a 500m target as a 100m, then 3 times the points or ......well, maybe you get the idea. Something along those lines. That way a person whose gear just can't do it, like maybe someone shooting an average sks doesn't get a big penalty but doesn't get the big points, either where a person that is able with his gear to do it, will take the time to do it. Might make an interesting situation. I am more of a carrot on a stick lead me type guy instead of take a whip me & push me.

MLM

[GorillaTactical]

Just for the sake of discussion, what if you consider them in a uspsa term "disappearing targets" & then give them a greater point value for hitting them. IOW, you have to engage them for no penalty. If you miss, no penalty(or maybe just a normal "miss" penalty) but if you hit them, the points you gain are enough to make them worthwhile. If you think it takes 3 times as long to hit a 500m target as a 100m, then 3 times the points or ......well, maybe you get the idea. Something along those lines. That way a person whose gear just can't do it, like maybe someone shooting an average sks doesn't get a big penalty but doesn't get the big points, either where a person that is able with his gear to do it, will take the time to do it. Might make an interesting situation. I am more of a carrot on a stick lead me type guy instead of take a whip me & push me.

MLM

More discussion along these lines!!!

[ninemmbill]

I think you keep the penalties the same for the 500 yard, or award bonus points for those who make the shot. A 500 yard target is a hard target for those shooting iron sights, a red dot, even some of the lower power scopes. You penalize and therefore discourage a lot of shooters, especially those who can't afford one of the high dollar 1-6 or 1-8 variables available.

If you are running a major match, I can see challenging shooters to help separate the competition. But at local matches, that can be a tough call.

[prreed10]

I'm Intrested in this as well. Our club has the capabilities to shoot out to 600 yds, but we have been stopping around 300yds due to the problems listed above. We added higher penalties as well, but I like the idea of a bonus.

[mpeltier]

I absolutely detest a higher penalty in a case like this. It is penalizing everyone grotesquely for the sake of detering gamers. There is no easy answer to this, but having a long range target such as that as a bonus only is a good idea.

[Graham Smith]

If constant changing wind is an issue, then 500yds is asking a lot for many 3-gunners unless they are really experienced at compensating for wind.

The disappearing target idea may have merit but I think that there's no FTE or miss penalty for skipping that. That makes the target a bonus (I think). If you could, as suggested, make them some kind of high point bonus targets then it might solve the problem. Give them enough of a value that it would make taking the time to try worth while. They do this at "sniper" matches, but I have no idea how you would do this in terms of a 3 gun match.

I don't think that making them a required target would work, it's too easy to just spray a round in that direction to avoid the FTE and take the miss penalty rather than waste time on something you can't hit.

Just a thought, would it be possible to set it up in such a way as to give the shooter a choice between a distant and a closer target with the closer target being less points or smaller or partly obscured to balance out the difficulty factor?

Edited January 31, 2011 by Graham Smith

[AlamoShooter]

The main problem Sunday was the 60 seconds max time It should have Bent 120

Or provide some kind of rest like a sand bag, the shooting position was head down that added to the difficulty.

It would have been better with one target at 480 and pull one in to 380 = the shooter could work their way out.

Traveling to other big matches will help too, Its not easy to set up good stages - its an ART form Skill of its own.

Easy is not good Long with the shortest time limit is not much satisfaction.

USPSA multi-gun rules have some guide lines

The match was good

[D.Hayden]

targets (approx 230M and 500M)...

500M - just about 550 yards.. that's too far for a normal target. If you do time plus, make it like Ironman.. 10 or 15 second bonus targets

[AlamoShooter]

The targets were full size LaRue - it was only the time limit that I did not like.

A friend shot his first match & used my gun and hit 5 out of 6 with one at 480

It was not That Hard

Edited January 31, 2011 by AlamoShooter

[GorillaTactical]

The targets were full size LaRue - it was only the time limit that I did not like.

A friend shot his first match & used my gun and hit 5 out of 6 with one at 480

It was not That Hard

I agree with Jamie that the targets weren't OVERLY HARD TO HIT.....I don't have an excuse for missing as I've hit them plenty of times before....but the fact that I missed em at this match ended my day, the rest of the stages didn't even matter.

too make my point I must include times for reference:

Match winner won with a total time of 169 (over 5 stages)

I averaged about 3-4 seconds slower on each stage (so I should fall somewhere in the 180 region) except for the Long Range........my total time with the LR added in was 291 , and I hit half the targets

soooooo, back to the question at hand, what type of scoring platforms can you use to bridge the gap between "well I can just shoot once and take a little penalty" and the match killer penalty?

Edited February 1, 2011 by GorillaTactical

[Glen]

How about using the concept of "warning shots" for long range targets.

A legitimate target beyond the edge of the regular playing surface merits at least

a warning shot and a reward if actually hit. You must engage it, and pay the time

cost for that. There are no miss penalties. You are rewarded for a hit, either minus

time or extra points.

The minus time reward has to be matched to the estimated time required for a middle

of the pack shooter to make the hit so everyone has incentive to make the shot.

The major downside to long range targets, or too many of them, is the likelihood of

timing out.

Comments?

Glen

Just for the sake of discussion, what if you consider them in a uspsa term "disappearing targets" & then give them a greater point value for hitting them. IOW, you have to engage them for no penalty. If you miss, no penalty(or maybe just a normal "miss" penalty) but if you hit them, the points you gain are enough to make them worthwhile. If you think it takes 3 times as long to hit a 500m target as a 100m, then 3 times the points or ......well, maybe you get the idea. Something along those lines. That way a person whose gear just can't do it, like maybe someone shooting an average sks doesn't get a big penalty but doesn't get the big points, either where a person that is able with his gear to do it, will take the time to do it. Might make an interesting situation. I am more of a carrot on a stick lead me type guy instead of take a whip me & push me.

MLM

[Bryan 45]

Using point based scoring instead of total time would help a lot.

[DeweyH]

I agree with what Bryan45 said. I don't think long range stages using straight time or IDPA style scoring will ever work very well. The problem is that the long range stage usually takes a lot longer time than the regular stages. You can beat the another competitor by 10% on the regular stages but if they beat you by 10% on the long range stage they will probably win. I think a long range stage that had a set time and ammo limit would work well in a points system. If you had 5 targets from 100 to 500 yard and gave the competitor 1-2 minutes and 30 rounds and let them get all the points they could by working through the targets from 100 to 500 and then starting over if they have time. Whoever hits the most gets the most stage points and there would be no need for penalties for not shooting at a target

[TXMXRACER]

EDIT: ALL REFERENCES TO METERS ARE MEANT TO BE READ AS YARDS

Each month the TX Multigun Crew puts on an awesome match at the Best of the West in Liberty Hill. With that said, we've been floating around some different scoring methods for some far out steel targets (approx 230M and 500M)...of which we typically have 3 targets per each of those distances, per match. (so 3 at 230 and 3 at 500ish).

We've had them scored as standard steel targets just like the rest of the steel in the match but experienced that with the intense wind that kicks up periodically, some shooters would be winning the stage by simply firing 1-3 controlled shots at the 500M targets, missing, taking the time penalty of 10 seconds per target, and moving on.....so today the crew tried out giving them a HUGELY enhanced penalty value (30 seconds per target missed added to your stage time) in order to "promote" people to actually try to hit the targets.

Problem with that was, if shooters couldn't hit those targets, or timed out (60 second par time), they immediately fell to the bottom half of the standings regardless of how they shot the rest of the match (I would know, I was one of them ). With the stage factored into my overall score, I placed 18th; without it, I would have placed 2nd...

So, in the experience of some of the other shooters/MD's out there, how do you make targets worth actually trying to hit, without making the outcome of the match completely based on a single target array?

NOTE: I fully recognize that Long Range Rifle is part of 3gun, just as much as hoser stages, but it is JUST THAT.....A PART of 3gun....the difference between placing 2nd and placing 18th (when the time spread between those 2 finishes is over 150 seconds), shouldn't be determined by a single array of targets, should it? So how do we fix that??? -------> or am I just complaining cause I got owned by 500M targets?

So if you had hit the targets in 30-40 seconds would you still be having this conversation?

[GorillaTactical]

Of course I would. The way the stage was scored, IT WAS THE MATCH. I'm not necessarily against stages which are weighted heavier than others, but those need to have more of a discipline than just one type of shooting (EX: Long Range)

The fact that I got the bad deal on this style of scoring has nothing to do with bringing it up as a topic of discussion so that I can hear what others have to say/have used when referring to this topic.

My personal example is only used to highlight what I feel can prove difficult from an MD/Stage designers perspective

Edited February 1, 2011 by GorillaTactical

[GeneralChang]

Hey Josh,

Maybe 3 gun is not your game. We do have night shoots with close up targets. I think max distance is about 15 yards. I think you'll do fine at 15 yards

Seriously, they were tough shots and we are working hard to make a balanced scoring procedure for the long range. I shot WW2 division and suffered greatly as a result. For the record, the par or max time was experimental. I think Jamie is right, 90 seconds would have been good. We'll do the best we can. Thanks for everyone's feedback. See you at the next match.

[GorillaTactical]

Hey Josh,

Maybe 3 gun is not your game. We do have night shoots with close up targets. I think max distance is about 15 yards. I think you'll do fine at 15 yards

I love those target distances

[Dingo]

The match was great to all who put it on. I don't think there are any problems with targets at 500 or 30 second penalties for missing them. It is a skill that needs to be honed if you want to compete in any of the major matches these days. And from what I have seen the people in the sport are all willing to help and share knowledge for those less experienced or needing help on a single aspect. The longer range stages are becoming much more prominent and I believe they are here to stay. 3 gun involves all three guns and versatility with each, this is not a best 4 out of 5 competition. If you tank a stage you should not be able to place near the top. There was one stage I would like to undo also.

[bigbrowndog]

I think the point is that with the match being scored as total accumulated time, leaving the 2 LR targets put you at a 60second disadvantage for the rest of the match, which means you would have to make up those 60 seconds in order to break even, however I'll share my experience on that stage. A 60 second deficit total time approx, twice the winning time, so 50% that gives me a 50% deficit, the next stage if I win it with a 50% advantage over the next closest competitor it would wipe out the deficit, however since it was only a 17+ second run, and the next closest would be 35 seconds it really only gave me a 17 second recovery from the first stage deficit, which still leaves me with a large deficit to overcome. Had the stages been scored separately as is done most everywhere else, I do not think the issue would be nearly as important.

That said, the shots were not tough with a magnified optic!!!!!, with irons or an unmagnified optic they were tough. most of the Bonus targets we see at those distances are full size IPSC targets or 18x24 plates, a LaRue is smaller than that.

However experienced Iron sight shooters are used to putting up with target presentations that do consider the use of unmagnified sights.

The match itself was a fun match, I hope that Sheldon and AR15 targets are learning more about good stage design and target presentation so that their respective matches will become major events in the local area, it would be really nice to not have to drive so freakin' far away for a good major match.

Trapr

[Fullauto_Shooter]

As the gamer namesake of this new TX Multi-gun rule - AKA "The Doug Johnson Rule" (thanks Sheldon, never had a rule named in my honor before), I agree the new penalty for failing to hit the LR targets is exceptionally harsh.

I can also understand the reasoning behind the rule, but it does put an almost unacceptably heavy "weight" on the LR stage when compared to all other stages. I agree with Josh that this one stage can certainly "make or break" your entire match. This is from the perspective of a guy who actually hit all the targets without too much trouble.

I also agree with Jamie that the shots weren't expectionally difficult yesterday, but the wind was zero value and blowing directly toward the targets. If you add the normal 10-20 MPH swirling crosswind we usually see at BOTW, this makes the LR targets pretty damn tough.

For the local matches, time plus scoring is good and simple. But for the upcoming big matches at BOTW (TX Multigun / Larue), I'd like to see the scoring move away from total time and maybe toward the Benning method (150pts per stage for 3 guns, 125pts per stage for 2 guns, 100pts per stage for single gun). This would make the stage "weight" more equitable and eliminate the problem of having one stage that can totally destroy your entire match.

Regardless of how they score the match, I'll continue to shoot it. Big thanks to Sheldon and all the other folks who work so hard to put on such a high quality monthly 3-gun match.

Doug

Edited January 31, 2011 by Fullauto_Shooter

[ButterFace]

The match was great to all who put it on. I don't think there are any problems with targets at 500 or 30 second penalties for missing them. It is a skill that needs to be honed if you want to compete in any of the major matches these days. And from what I have seen the people in the sport are all willing to help and share knowledge for those less experienced or needing help on a single aspect. The longer range stages are becoming much more prominent and I believe they are here to stay. 3 gun involves all three guns and versatility with each, this is not a best 4 out of 5 competition. If you tank a stage you should not be able to place near the top. There was one stage I would like to undo also.

I second this. Everyone has a stage they wish they could undo. Thats 3gun.