Berry's vs Montana Gold

[JDucros]

Would I make myself look like too much of a rookie if I asked what the difference is between jacketing and plating?

I understand the cost difference between the two brands and I understand there is a performance advantage the Montana Gold brand is supposed to provide however at some point I think it comes to a Chevy Vs Ford argument.

My question is the difference between the composition of the two different bullets themselves and how they effect the overall reloaded round.

There are a few guys who review ammo on YouTube. The Montana Gold Jacketed Hollow Points shed their jacket and sent the lead projectile straight through all four layers of denim and all four jugs of water(filled with wet newspaper.) One of the reviewers sounded surprised and disappointed that the MG's jacket broke apart so easily preventing them from mushrooming.

The berry's review showed their hollow points mushroomed like they are supposed to.

The way the Montana Gold rounds shed their jackets it seemed as though the lead part and the jacket were separate whereas the plated Berry's were sealed to their outer layer. I cut a berry's round nose in half the other day and the copper plating stayed on the bullet and was extremely tough.

Cheers,

-James

Edited December 6, 2010 by JDucros

[Sarge]

The first question doesn't make you sound like a rookie at all so don't worry.

However, the rest of the post might. Montana Gold (MG) are competition bullets. They are not man stoppers by design. The hollow points are made to seal the base of the bullet so there is no exposed lead which clogs comps, leads barrels, guns, hands, food, etc.

The HP's are slightly more accurate as they have a very uniform base by design.

Do a search on here and read all about both brands of bullets you mentioned. The MG's are far and away the way to go for serious competition. They are a true jacketed bullet.

Berry's, while they have a strong following are plated with a thin layer of copper which reportedly tears if you crimp them too much or they tear while reloading if the case is not belled enough, etc... Also look up the problems report having with inconsistant oal's while reloading Berry's. It seems the bullets or plating are not held to the same tight tolerances as MG or other quality brands of bullets.

MG is also a huge sponsor of USPSA.

Don't feel too bad. The bullet comparison threads seem to come along almost weekly.

Edit to add: It's not a Chevy vs. Ford thing. It's more like a Lexus vs. Kia kind of thing.

Edited December 6, 2010 by Sarge

[JDucros]

Montana Gold (MG) are competition bullets. They are not man stoppers by design. The hollow points are made to seal the base of the bullet so there is no exposed lead which clogs comps, leads barrels, guns, hands, food, etc.

Berry's, while they have a strong following are plated with a thin layer of copper which reportedly tears if you crimp them too much or they tear while reloading if the case is not belled enough, etc... Also look up the problems report having with inconsistant oal's while reloading Berry's. It seems the bullets or plating are not held to the same tight tolerances as MG or other quality brands of bullets.

Edit to add: It's not a Chevy vs. Ford thing. It's more like a Lexus vs. Kia kind of thing.

Ok, well that makes total sense being they are made for competition, not defense. The reviewer was using Double Tap ammo with Montana Gold bullets claiming they were sold as self defense ammo so I think that's where the misinformation came from.

As for the OAL inconsistencies with Berry's I have noticed that with the regular round nose. I switched to the Double Struck round nose and have had LESS inconsistency however there is still a small variance.

I did notice that the Berry;s are plated all over with no exposed lead but the coating is very thin compared to the jacked on the Montana Gold.

After doing some reading on here I've decided to place an order for some MG's..plus i'm not a big fan of Kia's. I've been using the Berry's 124gr round nose so I'm thinking of using MG 124 Hollow Points. Any thoughts?

Thanks for the input Sarge.

Cheers,

-JD

[Sarge]

Here is a quick read on the various MG bullets..

JHP's are fully jacketed on the bottom and sides with everything tucked into the HP. Think of the way a hersheys kiss is wrapped.

FMJ's are jacketed from the nose down with an exposed lead base. But they are a round nose.

CMJ's are a FMJ with a copper cup covering the exposed base.

The prices are very similar so a good choice would be either the CMJ or the JHP. However I shot a case of FMJ's this year and other than a tad bit of smoke they were fine. I got a very good deal on them but probably won't shoot them next time.

Iv'e shot alot of the CMJ's and they are fantastic bullets. No smoke at all and no leading issues.

And now for the free tip of the day. Order your MG bullets from mannyusa.com. Manny sells them cheaper than MG themselves.

He likes to do six case minimum orders but you can still get a single case cheaper then from MG.

Unless of course you would like to get smaller quantities(1000) and maybe compare the CMJ to JHP. Then you will go MG direct.

Good choice!

Good luck.

[Chills1994]

there was one day at the range where I was chronoing my reloads. part of my record keeping process is to keep my chrono results in a three ring binder. behind each load's chrono sheet I will store a target. the target is something I made up out of 8.5X11 white cardstock. I will stick one of those day glow orange birchwood casey aiming dots right in the center of the cardstock.

so I was trying to shoot some of my Berry's plated reloads for groups. out of a ten shot group I was consistently getting at least two fliers a good six to eight inches from the center of the main group. I was perplexed.

I don't know if it was something I read here...or what but for some reason I decided to measure the diameters of my yet to be stuffed into a shell casing Berry's bullets. sure enough, those Berry's would measure 0.399" while others were 0.400" and others still were 0.401" . then I checked my .45 and 9mm bullets. same thing. a thou or two undersized.

these were their once struck bullets. I am ASSuming that their double struck bullets are more consistent, but I don't know for sure.

six to eight inches at 15 yards could mean a Mike (a miss) or worse yet, a Mike and a hit on a no shoot, which would really hurt anybody's standings at a match.

I have since switched to Montana Gold bullets, and the groups are...well...printing like groups.

[usmc1974]

I like MG but I get Berrys for 72 a 1000 shiped, and I don't have to buy 4000 to get this price.

[G-ManBart]

Would I make myself look like too much of a rookie if I asked what the difference is between jacketing and plating?

I understand the cost difference between the two brands and I understand there is a performance advantage the Montana Gold brand is supposed to provide however at some point I think it comes to a Chevy Vs Ford argument.

My question is the difference between the composition of the two different bullets themselves and how they effect the overall reloaded round.

There are a few guys who review ammo on YouTube. The Montana Gold Jacketed Hollow Points shed their jacket and sent the lead projectile straight through all four layers of denim and all four jugs of water(filled with wet newspaper.) One of the reviewers sounded surprised and disappointed that the MG's jacket broke apart so easily preventing them from mushrooming.

The berry's review showed their hollow points mushroomed like they are supposed to.

The way the Montana Gold rounds shed their jackets it seemed as though the lead part and the jacket were separate whereas the plated Berry's were sealed to their outer layer. I cut a berry's round nose in half the other day and the copper plating stayed on the bullet and was extremely tough.

Cheers,

-James

No, it's really nothing like Chevy versus Ford. MG are high quality jacketed bullets, which requires more steps, and more expense to make. That means a cup of jacket material is drawn into shape, and filled with lead (super short version)...the jacket material is quite thick. Plated are lead bullets that have had a very thin layer of copper electrically plated to the lead. Plated bullets aren't as consistent in size, require you to be very careful with crimp settings, simply will not shoot out of some guns (no matter what you try) and generally aren't going to give the same accuracy you can get with decent jacketed bullets. Sure, there might be an oddball gun out there that doesn't follow that, but it'll be unusual.

The guys shooting bullets through denim into water jugs with newspaper...well, I'll just politely say that they aren't really experts, and their tests aren't very scientific. Nobody who knows anything about bullets would test those two as if they were designed for self-defense or hunting. Montana Gold hollow points aren't designed to be defensive bullets that mushroom, they're target bullets designed to be accurate. The method used to make a hollow point allows them to be more consistent than other designs (like FMJ, etc)...that's the only reason for them being hollow points.

What's funny is that I've shot a lot of MG JHPs into the berm during chrono testing, and have dug quite a few of them out...they've often held up pretty well.

Berrys also aren't designed for defensive purposes, but being soft lead, they're going to expand when they hit something hard. R,

[JDucros]

The guys shooting bullets through denim into water jugs with newspaper...well, I'll just politely say that they aren't really experts, and their tests aren't very scientific. Nobody who knows anything about bullets would test those two as if they were designed for self-defense or hunting. Montana Gold hollow points aren't designed to be defensive bullets that mushroom, they're target bullets designed to be accurate. The method used to make a hollow point allows them to be more consistent than other designs (like FMJ, etc)...that's the only reason for them being hollow points.

What's funny is that I've shot a lot of MG JHPs into the berm during chrono testing, and have dug quite a few of them out...they've often held up pretty well.

Berrys also aren't designed for defensive purposes, but being soft lead, they're going to expand when they hit something hard. R,

I guess with everything else in life there needs to be a filter installed when it comes to researching reloading components. I really appreciate your info because while I realize they aren't designed for defense and are in fact designed for precision only I guess it didn't really "click" in that thing claiming to be my brain until just now that I was looking at it from an entirely inaccurate angle.

Thanks again G-man Bart. Also, thanks to all of you who have put in your two cents.

I hope everyone is having a great start to their holiday season.

Cheers,

-JD

[StephensOutdoors]

I started out loading Berry's 'cause I could get them readily at my local Cabelas. I found them to be accurate and produce low Std. Dev (9 - 12) when chrono'd. Because of soft lead and the electoplating on the outside, I did have to clean out my seating die every couple hundred rounds and had more inconsistant lengths than jacketed bullets (147 gr 9mm's). Shooting wise, the only difference I found was that the Berry bullets chrono'd 20 - 30 fps faster than hard copper jacketed bullets.

[freakshow10mm]

One of the reasons for the test with DT ammo is Double Tap switched the bullets from the 115gr Gold Dot (calling them Bonded Defense) to the MG JHP (a competition bullet) during the shortage. They did this without notifying their customers and kept charging the higher price. Dozens of people got pissed that DTA sent out competition bullets instead of defense bullets because people bought the 115gr Bonded Defense (Gold Dot) load for defense. So someone bought some ammo from them and ran a backyard test which showed the bullet marketed and sold as one thing, was not in fact what they were buying (bait and switch). DTA lost a lot of customers from that.

Like Bart said, the jacketed (cup and core) are more consistent than plated. Look at the jacket surface and you will see minor dents and inconsistencies in the plated bullets versus the nearly perfect smooth line of the jacketed. For my ammo I sell two types of loads. I use plated for suppressed shooting where the bullet being completely encapsulated is better for suppressor cleanliness and it's casual blasting ammo where accuracy isn't priority #1. The competition ammo I sell is loaded with true jacketed bullets because they are more accurate out of more guns than plated. It's more expensive but customers will pay more for better accuracy. For the people that carry guns and shoot 100 rounds a month at 21 feet, plated is all they need.

Buying MG bullets in case quantity is only a few dollars more than plated bullets from TJ Conevera, but not everyone can afford to buy a case at a time.

[fastarget]

The best I could find price wise between jacketed and plated (both 147gr, berrys/MG), translated into $12 per thousand difference...........that translates to $.012, or 1.2 pennies. So you have to ask yourself are the pros for the jacketed worth the cost .......

[NOT QUITE RIGHT]

Berrys

[Robert Hode]

Would above statements generally apply to .45 acp as well?

[Hi-Power Jack]

yup.

[Reshoot]

I have used both, Berrys and MG. From my gun, Montana Gold's will hold a group nearly half the size of Berrys. The difference is enough that, under match conditions, I would have misses on head shots and some A's would end up being C's. Therefore, I am willing to pay that very small additional amount. Especially since I am one of those people that struggles to shoot a 30 yard group under 4 inches.

I could care less what happens to the bullet once it knocks a steel target down, or punches a hole in a metric target. Neither one of them (Berrys & MG) would I use for hunting or critical defense.

[MoonJeong]

Depends on the gun. My cz shadow has shallow rifling, hence berrys hollow base round nose seals better and provides half the group sizes relative to montana gold which have the hardest jacket (brass vs copper). My glock 19 likes montana gold better. Berrys has no issues with plating, as I shoot them at 1370. Fps from my open gun - over 10k rounds, and are perfect. Most accurate are zero regardless of gun. One more thing, I used to be a hard core montana gold person until I experienced fast barell wear due to the brass jacket. I shoot multiple guns and around 30k rounds per year, so I've stopped using montana gold bullets, and my wear problems have gone away. Again, depends on the gun. Both are excellent - Kudos to montana gold supporting our sport, maybe that's your decision maker....

[okorpheus]

So if the consensus is MG > plated, where would everyone put cast lead compared to plated?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[SilverBolt]

Sarge,

I went to www.mannyusa.com and do not see MG bullets or any reloading supplies?

[praff]

Look under ammunition at the bottom left of the page.

Edited March 22, 2014 by praff

[CeeZer]

Depends on the gun. My cz shadow has shallow rifling, hence berrys hollow base round nose seals better and provides half the group sizes relative to montana gold which have the hardest jacket (brass vs copper). My glock 19 likes montana gold better. Berrys has no issues with plating, as I shoot them at 1370. Fps from my open gun - over 10k rounds, and are perfect. Most accurate are zero regardless of gun. One more thing, I used to be a hard core montana gold person until I experienced fast barell wear due to the brass jacket. I shoot multiple guns and around 30k rounds per year, so I've stopped using montana gold bullets, and my wear problems have gone away. Again, depends on the gun. Both are excellent - Kudos to montana gold supporting our sport, maybe that's your decision maker....

Berry's HBRN are triple plated with much thicker copper wall and can be shot at greater velocities.

My take on why HB bullets shoot more accurate is 'cos the 'cylindrical' portion of the bullet, compared to another of same weight and regular shape, is longer and thus provides greater contact surface (length) and helps stabilizing bullet while in barrel.

Edited March 22, 2014 by CeeZer

[idcastandblast]

Check out Xtreme Bullets. Great price. Fully enclosed with no exposed lead. Very easy to load and very accurate.

[CeeZer]

Bullets selection and availability is way different and not as good in Canada as it is in USA.

Berry's seems one of the best here as far as quality/price/availability etc.

[glockdude1]

Plated bullets, like Berrys, tend to not come out of the barrel as balanced as the jacketed bullets, like MG's....that is why jacketed bullets are more accurate and that is why competitive shooters prefer jacketed over plated bullets....plus, jacketed hollow points fly the straightest to their target...they are well-balanced..

[CeeZer]

Especially if fired out of a Glock, full stop, right there...

[GJGary]

Depends on the gun. My cz shadow has shallow rifling, hence berrys hollow base round nose seals better and provides half the group sizes relative to montana gold which have the hardest jacket (brass vs copper). My glock 19 likes montana gold better. Berrys has no issues with plating, as I shoot them at 1370. Fps from my open gun - over 10k rounds, and are perfect. Most accurate are zero regardless of gun. One more thing, I used to be a hard core montana gold person until I experienced fast barell wear due to the brass jacket. I shoot multiple guns and around 30k rounds per year, so I've stopped using montana gold bullets, and my wear problems have gone away. Again, depends on the gun. Both are excellent - Kudos to montana gold supporting our sport, maybe that's your decision maker....

Berry's HBRN are triple plated with much thicker copper wall and can be shot at greater velocities.

My take on why HB bullets shoot more accurate is 'cos the 'cylindrical' portion of the bullet, compared to another of same weight and regular shape, is longer and thus provides greater contact surface (length) and helps stabilizing bullet while in barrel.

I agree and really like the 124gn HBRN, tried them when projectiles were hard to come by. If you buy 3k from powder valley 8.7 cents a round. I find them as accurate as the JHPs at 20yrds.