15 round magazines in Production

[JAFO]

I can't believe this thread is still going.

I asked something back on page 3 that was never addressed and it still puzzles me:

I've been shooting USPSA Production for over two years and I don't understand the first complaint. Yes, more capacity would change the way you could shoot a stage, but you're only competing against other Production shooters who ALL have a 10 round limit. How does that limit make you less competitive than the other Production shooters? If you want to talk about certain guns being more competitive than others, then talk about trigger type, trigger pull weight, sights, sight radius, etc. But basing your point on the one aspect that's actually exactly the same for all guns involved doesn't make sense to me.

[badchad]

How does that limit make you less competitive than the other Production shooters?

It doesn't, but that's not the argument, at least not mine.

[BBoyle]

I enjoy the challenge of reloading in production and the stage breakdown is more critical, which I believe will make someone a better overall shooter faster. In my area Production always has a high turnout, sometimes even more shooters than Open or Limited.

How would I even begin to think that I can compete, in a local match, with my sub compact carry gun? I know it is not competitive with the small capacity and short sight radius, but putting a 15 round limit would kill me on stages. I like to break it out once or twice a year just to see how I do with a stock real world gun against shooters that I know place well in Area matches and the nationals. I remember stage wins with that little gun better than match wins!!!!

Again for keeping it how it is.

Brian

[G-ManBart]

Second, yes it hurt has performance. He had issues with the powderpuff ammo he shot.

OK, so were in some kind of agreement. If you shoot a gun that hurts rather than helps your performance the gun is not a competitive platform. So it seem we now agree that compact pistols are not truly competitive rigs, and it seems we in fact agree on the .45. Not much else out there, used with any significant frequency, which does not already hold 15 rounds at least.

Having an ammo problem doesn't mean the gun isn't competitive.

It's an image issue. Let there be a division or two where a newbie can come in and be competetive, at a local level, where he's gonna be for the first year or two anyway, with what he already owns.

I'll buy that argument before I'll buy your original one that a lot of competitive guns will suddenly be made obsolete. But even regarding image I disagree. Limited is a division a newbie can reasonably competitive in at a local level, particularly if you are shooting major. I think you even said some of your new shooters opt for Limited. Since Production was not around when you started, it seems you weren't greatly turned off shooting your G21 in something other than Production.

What, exactly, is a local, major match? That a new category? Wait, now you want to use the local match as a model, when up until now it's been all Nationals, Nationals, Nationals? Funny....

A newbie can come in and be reasonably competitive in most any division, certainly not Limited more than any other, but more of them are likely to have a competitive Production gun, than Limited gun. If you don't have 20+ rounds, magwells, trigger jobs etc, you're not going to really have a "competitive" gun in Limited, and in many clubs, Limited is the biggest division, with more of the best shooters, so it's really jumping into the shark tank.

And yet you try using them as an example, even though it's exactly the opposite of what you want to do.

No I'm just looking for Aristotle's golden mean (as in “The coward calls the brave man rash, the rash man calls him a coward.”) with regards to mag capacity. I think that's what IPSC was looking for as well. IPSC had to come down for it, we IMO need to move up.

No, you're trying to put a square peg, in a round hole, and doing a poor job of it. What IPSC did has no bearing on what USPSA should do, so that's a total red herring...."look at what IPSC did" even though the conditions and situation were entirely different.

Yep.

Interesting. Let me ask you this. At the local level, is there any percentage of guns holding 15 or more used that would make you in favor of raising magazine capacity? If so what percent?

Right, like I run around at matches, jotting down what gun everybody is using, and running percentages on it....please, don't be silly. Last night at our practice match there were no less than five newbies shooting Production with guns that would not be competitive if the limit was raised. The results should be up sometime tonight, but from our last practice match, note that we had 20 shooters total, 10 shooting Production, and SIX of those are either not USPSA members, or are Pending. We had 32+ shooters last night, and even more newbies, so those numbers are probably going to be even higher.

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-display-match-results-detail.php?indx=468

I think Bart covered this one rather nicely. Using a non-USPSA match to justify changing USPSA rules, based on a tiny sample size, on a match that has zero correlation with USPSA is, well.....let's just say it has about as much merit as me saying we should change revolver to require thumb cocking because I went to this cowboy match last weekend and they were all thumb cocking, every single one of them.

Maybe, but if you think TNS results don't correlate with USPSA then you either haven't checked the results, or you don't know the definition of correlation. Also with an average of ~150 shooters a week we get a larger sample than any regular match I know of. We could combine results to get larger numbers if you want. I think the week before it was 10 novices in Limited against 3 in Production, and this week it 6 to 5 so with the 10 to zero last week we get a combined total of 16 to 8 which I bet is approaching statistical and practical significance. FWIW, TNS is the match most new shooters around here start with to get there feet wet before shooting a USPSA match. It's also the only match that uses the “novice” category for shooters in their first 3 matches so we can tell who is new and who isn't. I suppose if one were so inclined they could look at the last 100 newly classified USPSA shooters and see what their first classification is, but at least around here that would include a bunch of guys who have already bought new guns.

No, I'm completely aware of what the results look like at TNS, and I know what a correlation is. THERE IS NO POWER FACTOR AT TNS. Since there is no PF, there is little reason to not shoot Limited with a Minor gun. End of story, TNS doesn't mean squat when it comes to a USPSA match.

Isn't it a little bit silly when I can post results from a USPSA match that show newbies shooting Production, and you come back with a completely different sport to try and support your case? Sheesh man, that's nuts.

Notice that 10 of the 14 U shooters here were in Production, 0 in Lim.

http://www.uspsa.org/legacy/match_index.php?local=1&clubid=MI11&year=2010&match=09_19

13 of the 19 U shooters were in Production, 0 in Lim.

http://www.uspsa.org/legacy/match_index.php?local=1&clubid=MI11&year=2010&match=07_18

16 of 28 U shooters were in Production (six trying to get classified in SS bumped the overall), 0 in Lim.

http://www.uspsa.org/legacy/match_index.php?local=1&clubid=MI11&year=2010&match=07_18

13 of 15 U shooters in Production, only 1 in Lim...I've never even shot here:

http://www.uspsa.org/legacy/match_index.php?local=1&clubid=MI22&year=2010&match=09_19

18 of 27 U shooters in Procution, only 3 in Lim.

http://www.uspsa.org/legacy/match_index.php?local=1&clubid=MI22&year=2010&match=06_20

I could go on and on and on posting results like that. Still want to suggest that most newbies shoot Limited? I've said it before...it depends on your area, the club etc, so what you see might be different from other areas, but you sure can't use TNS to argue debate this point.

You can beat this dead horse all you want, but there isn't a solid argument for it...nothing you're saying will induce more people to shoot USPSA. Because of that, it's not going to happen....

I said it before, I'm done with this....walked away for a while, but got sucked back in....not again

Edited December 18, 2010 by G-ManBart

[Chuck Anderson]

I know exactly what TNS is. I've shot it before. There is no power factor. The choice is either shooting 10 rounds or loading to capacity. There is no, zero, zilch, benefit to downloading your mags to anything but full capacity. Your argument makes no sense to anyone but you.

As far as other platforms being competetive, I know full well they are not ideal. But they give the new shooter the ability to come in with the gun they have, and not be greatly handicapped by their gun. Yes if you show up with a Hi-Point you are probably not going to have the best scores. But I've seen shooters show up with one. Tell them they have to compete against guys with $3000.00 limited guns and suddenly this is the sport for the rich that everybody whines about it being.

As far as what percentage of shooters using guns in Production with a capacity of 15 or higher would make me change my opinion. There really isn't one. The question is what percentage started with that gun that doesn't hold 15? What number of potential new shooters do we attract by having a 10 round friendly Division?

Using me as an example of someone not being deterred by the capacity is a little short sighted. I'm not the average USPSA shooter. And certainly not the one we're looking to attract. I was single, had a decent paying job and started winning free guns pretty quickly. I also spend waaaayyyy more than most shooters annually to compete. I would imagine if you tell most competitors that in a few years they'll be dropping 50K a year to compete you'd see most pack it in and leave...immediately.

But you go ahead and use your one, non-USPSA match as an example of why we should change USPSA rules. You'll get about as far as you already have.

[98sr20ve]

I like 10 rds magazine rules. It encourages new shooters to use what they got. It encourages learning some important skills other then just pulling the trigger. It's half the fun of Production. Learning how to carve up a stage within the confines of 10/11rds. If you don't like it shoot Limited.

[badchad]

I know exactly what TNS is. I've shot it before. There is no power factor. The choice is either shooting 10 rounds or loading to capacity. There is no, zero, zilch, benefit to downloading your mags to anything but full capacity. Your argument makes no sense to anyone but you.

At TNS downloading to 10 rounds and entering Production division lets you compete against other Production type guns and lets you avoid direct competition with guys shooting 20 to 23 round magazine guns with 1 lb single action trigger. Major and minor don't matter, that's true, but its the same difference/benefit as with a USPSA match, in that shooting Production forces one to accept a disadvantage in the overall match results to place higher within ones division.

As far as other platforms being competetive, I know full well they are not ideal. But they give the new shooter the ability to come in with the gun they have, and not be greatly handicapped by their gun. Yes if you show up with a Hi-Point you are probably not going to have the best scores. But I've seen shooters show up with one. Tell them they have to compete against guys with $3000.00 limited guns and suddenly this is the sport for the rich that everybody whines about it being.

Personally I like shooting Production because ammo is cheaper, the guns are cheaper, and for the most part the guns just work without my having to tithe 10% of my income to my gunsmith. So I agree with you that it's good to have a division that reduces costs. I just don't think the 10 round rule helps any in that regard.

As far as what percentage of shooters using guns in Production with a capacity of 15 or higher would make me change my opinion. There really isn't one. The question is what percentage started with that gun that doesn't hold 15? What number of potential new shooters do we attract by having a 10 round friendly Division?

I think that's a fair. I think we both know that just about everyone in Production who is trying hard to win these days ends up with a hi-cap 9mm with an occasional .40, but I agree they don't all start there. However, I don't think it makes sense to artificially hold down the capacity of guns that just about everyone ends up with to make things marginally more comfortable for the new guy on his first few matches. Also I know a bunch of new shooters choose to start out in Limited with Production guns so they can load their mags full, often because they don't show up with enough mags to finish a high round course if loaded to only 10 so for those guys the 10 round rule makes the division significantly less inviting. So to answer your questions above I think you would have to compare the number of new shooters that show up on day one with small cap guns, with those that show up on day one, with less than 4 magazines (at least).

[36873687]

This is why I went to limited I love production but just because your state has 10 round rules an even lower now a days why penalize the ones that don't. The c.o division started now an still stuck at 10 dang rounds an mags that hold 15 to 19 I don't ge it

[Sarge]

I still can't figure out what TNS is...

[Distant Thunder]

Transgender Neutral Shooting?

Edited July 16, 2016 by Distant Thunder

[warpspeed]

Tuesday Night Steel @ Rio Salado in Phoenix, AZ

[Distant Thunder]

Tuesday Night Steel @ Rio Salado in Phoenix, AZ

Yes, but does it offer Transgender Neutral Shooting? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Distant Thunder]

And do they offer range snacks like Tacos, Nachos & Salsa?

[IL-SIG]

Holy old topic Batman! This was from 2010...

[Nimitz]

I'd rather be able to use race holsters in production like they do in IPSC.

Of course... everybody wants more. More rounds, more holster choices, and on and on...

I'd rather use my STI Steelmaster in Production since it has a dot .... and a comp .... and a magwell .... and a race holster ... and a mag that holds 30 rds ...

[bulm540]

Its a solution looking for a problem.

[M1911]

This is why I went to limited I love production but just because your state has 10 round rules an even lower now a days why penalize the ones that don't. The c.o division started now an still stuck at 10 dang rounds an mags that hold 15 to 19 I don't ge it

There are a lot of us behind enemy lines -- MA, CA, NY, CT, HI, MD, NJ.

If you want to shoot an optic and you are in a free state, then go open.

[crowmag]

+1

I'd rather be able to use race holsters in production like they do in IPSC.

Of course... everybody wants more. More rounds, more holster choices, and on and on...

I'd rather use my STI Steelmaster in Production since it has a dot .... and a comp .... and a magwell .... and a race holster ... and a mag that holds 30 rds ...

[IronArcher]

Wondering why so many shoot Limited, and so few shoot L10...

[motosapiens]

Wondering why so many shoot Limited, and so few shoot L10...

wondering why so many shoot production and so few shoot L10.

one thing I don't wonder about is why almost everyone in limited shoots a version of the same gun, whereas Production has a million different guns, and L10 has a huge amount of variety, from 1911's to downloaded 2011's to various 40 and 45 cal duty and military guns, etc.. etc...

Edited July 26, 2016 by motosapiens

[IronArcher]

wondering why so many shoot production and so few shoot L10.

one thing I don't wonder about is why almost everyone in limited shoots a version of the same gun, whereas Production has a million different guns, and L10 has a huge amount of variety, from 1911's to downloaded 2011's to various 40 and 45 cal duty and military guns, etc.. etc...

Cost, ability to compete with a 9mm, ability to compete with a gun they already own.

[GForceLizard]

Leave production alone.  Drop Limited 10 and create Limited 15 minor.  Production guys that want to shoot 15 would play.  Limited shooters that for reasons of health or age that have to shoot minor could download to 15.  Let the battle between production triggers and single action triggers begin.  The trigger issue would be nothing, totally swamped by shooting ability.

[Dr Mitch]

28-shot Open Minor Irons

[36873687]

1 hour ago, GForceLizard said:

Leave production alone.  Drop Limited 10 and create Limited 15 minor.  Production guys that want to shoot 15 would play.  Limited shooters that for reasons of health or age that have to shoot minor could download to 15.  Let the battle between production triggers and single action triggers begin.  The trigger issue would be nothing, totally swamped by shooting ability.

That's best idea I've heard I'm in. An way CO wasn't 15 rounds I'll never know

[d_striker]

On 9/15/2016 at 8:58 PM, GForceLizard said:

Leave production alone.  Drop Limited 10 and create Limited 15 minor.  Production guys that want to shoot 15 would play.  Limited shooters that for reasons of health or age that have to shoot minor could download to 15.  Let the battle between production triggers and single action triggers begin.  The trigger issue would be nothing, totally swamped by shooting ability.

 

I'd shoot that division.