nuidad

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About nuidad

  • Rank
    Looks for Match
  • Birthday 10/22/1950

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    Male
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    Naalehu, HI
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    USPSA Rules
    Shooting
    Model Wooden Boats
    Enjoying Retirement
  • Real Name
    Rick Johnson

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  1. Absolutely. We definitely could use some rulings and probably some re-writing of the rules to make this less onerous. It's a terrible topic to discuss. I usually get people nodding off and avoiding me if I start talking about it, but without a well-ingrained understanding of the applicable rules and a universal application of those rules, we'll have to deal with the disagreement and conflict. I just hate being confronted by a differing interpretation during Make Ready. Additionally, the entire Classification program comes under criticism when competitors are being started differently when shooting classifiers. I'm sure that if everyone agreed with me I'd probably be a GM rather than a C . I'm going to pick some brains when I take my CRO class at the end of July.
  2. I think Troy was making a clarification...to help with the fairly common confusion with the whole Starting Position issue. IMHO, the rules support Troy's position. They are just unclear.
  3. The Default will be greatly diminished in importance and usage if Location only is the triggering mechanism for its application. A WSB would have to read something like this...no more or no less...: e.g. "Starting in Box A" or "Starting within shooting area." I'm a big proponent of unrestricted, undefined...anyway/anywhere Starting Positions. I'd like to see more WSBs look like this: Starting Position: None
  4. From A3: Start position ....................The location, shooting position and stance prescribed by a COF prior to issuance of the "Start signal". Stance ..............................The physical presentation of a person’s limbs (e.g. hands by the side, arms crossed etc.). Shooting position .............The physical presentation of a person’s body (e.g. standing, sitting, kneeling, prone). Location ...........................A physical space within the boundaries of a course of fire.... Hopefully you all will stay engaged with this thread because I want to discuss one other aspect of Start Position...the Shooting Position component. My take on Shooting Position is that it is also a "how" component. When the WSB only states, "Standing in Box A," it is usually interpreted as a "where" and, therefore, imposes the Default. It's somewhat less clear when the WSB only states, "Sitting behind table," because the Default is, by definition, not applicable (since you can't be "...standing erect" if you are sitting. JAFO's position on this issue (below) offers an approach to this dilemma but (respectfully) it may not be supportable and in harmony with the rules. "If a WSB requires sitting/lying down, facing another direction, or doing something else with arms or hands, then I use whatever is stated in the WSB and nothing more." I think it is reasonable to consider the Shooting Position as a "how" since it does not define a Location (physical space) by any stretch of the imagination. By considering both Shooting Position along with Stance as "Hows", the entire issue would be much easier to understand...Shooting Position and Stance deactivate the Default. Only Location will activate the Default. It may require some adjustment to the current practice but it would make things easier when RO-ing or Making Ready. "Starting in Box A".....Default "Standing in Box A".....No Default
  5. Moto, just for clarification, I totally agree with you and am surprised that there are "...many (who) believe "Toes on X's" defines where you start and doesn't deactivate the Default?
  6. From A3: Start position ....................The location, shooting position and stance prescribed by a COF prior to issuance of the "Start signal". Stance ..............................The physical presentation of a person’s limbs (e.g. hands by the side, arms crossed etc.). Shooting position .............The physical presentation of a person’s body (e.g. standing, sitting, kneeling, prone). Location ...........................A physical space within the boundaries of a course of fire.... Why do we almost universally agree that "Hands on X's" defines how you start and deactivates the Default requirement, but many believe "Toes on X's" defines where you start and doesn't deactivate the Default? Is it because A3-Stance doesn't say anything about the lower limbs (feet and legs)? It does, however, say "e.g."
  7. I always thought something like "Toes on Xs" was the triggering language for uncoupling the default start. When the WSB says "hands on Xs," almost everyone turns toward the targets and gets in the ready-to-scoot position. I've never considered hands on Xs to be only a "where to start instruction"...even though it does define the start location...just like Toes on Xs. Have I been doing that wrong all this time? What if "toes on Xs" puts you in a position that does not allow you to be facing downrange?
  8. And yet, how many times have you seen competitors starting in angled, running start stance, hands in the "quick draw" position when the WSB said, "Starting outside shooting area, toes on Xs?" I'm having a hard time thinking of a WSB that I've seen that would allow that start poosition.
  9. Thanks, JAFO. You present a very logical solution to the dilemma. I wish I could find a definitive ruling on this and other Start Position questions as there seems to be a lot of "alternate" interpretations out there. I have run into several here in this thread as well as on the range. A sentence in 8.2.2 that says, "If a WSB restates part of the default position, use the default," would be helpful. The question that arises is, why wouldn't the CM-99-07 WSB then just say "...Standing in Box A?" That would make it very simple...DEFAULT POSITION, period. Why would they add a level of complexity to interpreting the WSB by adding anything? Especially in a Classifier where the intent is to have everyone start and shoot the stage the same. I can understand some redundancy and ambiguity at the club level in preparing the WSB but with all the scrutiny and all the effort having been put into making sure the classifiers were clear and concise, I wonder if they are actually describing the start position that was intended i.e., Standing in Box A (anyway you want) but with both arms...blah, blah. Have you found that most ROs ascribe to your use of the default in this situation?
  10. Hopefully somebody still has enough interest in this thread to answer one more question. Classifier CM 99-07, Both Sides Now #1 (and several others), have Start Positions as below: START POSITION: Standing in Box A, both arms hanging relaxed at sides. Handgun is loaded and holstered as per ready condition in rule 8.1.1 and 8.1.2. Arms hanging relaxed at sides is one of the criteria for the "default start". Does that mean the default start is still applied or can the competitor now turn and face in any direction since it is "...otherwise specified" per 8.2.2. Thanks again for your help. Hopefully I won't be the tinhorn RO that harshes your make-ready Zen-state with uninformed BS.
  11. Actually, I've always interpreted it like you said. But then I started thinking, what if it said, "sitting behind table?" The default wouldn't be applied there...couldn't be applied for obvious reasons. So I probably started overthinking the whole thing.
  12. Bret. Thanks...the question was long and convoluted but if I'm reading the rest of your post correctly I think you and I agree (you said "No."). If it just says standing, the default is un-coupled...anything goes. If it just says starting, the default is applied. Am I reading you right?
  13. One last related question that's been bugging me about starting position for all courses of fire...not necessarily just classifiers. Does the start position instruction "standing in shooting area" un-couple the default starting position requirement? Would 8.2.2 only apply if the starting position instruction was "starting in shooting area" or starting outside of shooting area" etc.? Where nothing else was specified except location.
  14. Thinking about the whole "gaming" issue, I can't think of anything that could be done on this classifier that would be considered gaming. Gaming is walking nonchalantly back to the bear trap to activate the disappearing drop turner after the last shot is fired to avoid penalties. We're talking about a foot on the fault line, or bending over a little at the start signal...mostly just being comfortable at the start because that's the way you start most of the time when not specified otherwise in the WSB. The Classifier Guidance Document states: Every possible effort has been made to ensure that all the stages in this book are “game proof.” The courses have been repeatedly reviewed by many people with hundreds of years of combined practical shooting and course design experience. These include Range Officers, Chief Range Officers, Range Masters, Range Master Instructors, and the Director of the National Range Officers Institute.
  15. Does the specified starting position in 99-12 require the competitor to be standing erect? START POSITION: Standing in Box A, index finger and thumb of each hand touching, with hands placed flat on barricade at eye level. Handgun is loaded and holstered as per ready condition in rule 8.1.1 and 8.1.2.